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Post by ickes on May 17, 2015 0:36:25 GMT -6
Funny yes, but I'm not laughing. This has gone further than just my money. What can be done? BBB can't really do anything can they? I wonder if the Phoenix local news does consumer fraud stories. I'm going to look into that. @61scout, I'm a Phoenix native and yes, there's a local news station here (channel 3) that does exactly that. It is called "3 on your side". Here's the link to contact them ; www.azfamily.com/story/28314711/contact-3-on-your-side |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 0:36:47 GMT -6
Oh look, a lion's den with lions inside of it... I'll just walk inside, but if the lion tries to bite me, I'm gonna shoot it.
That's what people are doing, and it's stupid. Lions do lion things, and people that you expect to be swindling thieves should be expected to do swindle-ous things!!!
Don't be upset, mad or angry when the lion bites you if there are warning signs posted.
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Post by benjaminpersitz on May 17, 2015 1:13:25 GMT -6
I'm confused by the logic here. I've never ordered from LD, but I've seen the horror stories. The company committed to send the product out within 48 hours. If I give them 6 days to ship, and they still haven't, I'm going to ask for my money back.
Why? Because they have a reputation and I don't want to go on a ride for 6 months waiting for goods I paid for. If I give them 4 days to process a refund for me (takes less than 2 minutes) and they don't do it, I will call my credit card company and get the money back.
I'm willing to order from them and see if they follow through. If they don't follow through, it is perfectly reasonable for me to respond with a chargeback based on their reputation.
The idea that we should be patient and let a company lie to us is ludicrous. The "just be happy" if it shows up attitude is just as silly.
If I pay for goods, I expect the goods I paid for to be delivered on a timely manner and for those goods to be as ordered.
I get what you're saying. LD have f!@ked up before, why trust them now? Why get mad if they don't ship?
What I'm saying is that I'm fine trusting them, but when they break my trust, I will act accordingly. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 1:30:50 GMT -6
I'm confused by the logic here. I've never ordered from LD, but I've seen the horror stories. The company committed to send the product out within 48 hours. If I give them 6 days to ship, and they still haven't, I'm going to ask for my money back. Why? Because they have a reputation and I don't want to go on a ride for 6 months waiting for goods I paid for. If I give them 4 days to process a refund for me (takes less than 2 minutes) and they don't do it, I will call my credit card company and get the money back. I'm willing to order from them and see if they follow through. If they don't follow through, it is perfectly reasonable for me to respond with a chargeback based on their reputation. The idea that we should be patient and let a company lie to us is ludicrous. The "just be happy" if it shows up attitude is just as silly. If I pay for goods, I expect the goods I paid for to be delivered on a timely manner and for those goods to be as ordered. I get what you're saying. LD have f!@ked up before, why trust them now? Why get mad if they don't ship? What I'm saying is that I'm fine trusting them, but when they break my trust, I will act accordingly. I don't think that's unreasonable. Maybe "Don't be mad" was a bad choice of words... More like "Don't be surprised/confused/shocked/befuddled/disgruntled/etc..." |
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Post by wisdom on May 17, 2015 3:21:00 GMT -6
I'm confused by the logic here. I've never ordered from LD, but I've seen the horror stories. The company committed to send the product out within 48 hours. If I give them 6 days to ship, and they still haven't, I'm going to ask for my money back. Why? Because they have a reputation and I don't want to go on a ride for 6 months waiting for goods I paid for. If I give them 4 days to process a refund for me (takes less than 2 minutes) and they don't do it, I will call my credit card company and get the money back. I'm willing to order from them and see if they follow through. If they don't follow through, it is perfectly reasonable for me to respond with a chargeback based on their reputation. The idea that we should be patient and let a company lie to us is ludicrous. The "just be happy" if it shows up attitude is just as silly. If I pay for goods, I expect the goods I paid for to be delivered on a timely manner and for those goods to be as ordered. I get what you're saying. LD have f!@ked up before, why trust them now? Why get mad if they don't ship? What I'm saying is that I'm fine trusting them, but when they break my trust, I will act accordingly. I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't think it's fair to respond to a delay by LD with a nuclear option when, in most cases, any other retailer would probably be shown a bit more grace IF one is going to hold them to the standards of being an honest and fair company. Justifying an action a typical retailer wouldn't get by pointing out their track record just means they shouldn't be expected to behave like an honest and competent company to begin with. It seems a little unfair to expect them to behave like any other retailer but threaten to treat them like LD if they don't meet that expectation. |
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Post by Old26 on May 17, 2015 9:22:42 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here...
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Post by benjaminpersitz on May 17, 2015 9:48:51 GMT -6
I'm confused by the logic here. I've never ordered from LD, but I've seen the horror stories. The company committed to send the product out within 48 hours. If I give them 6 days to ship, and they still haven't, I'm going to ask for my money back. Why? Because they have a reputation and I don't want to go on a ride for 6 months waiting for goods I paid for. If I give them 4 days to process a refund for me (takes less than 2 minutes) and they don't do it, I will call my credit card company and get the money back. I'm willing to order from them and see if they follow through. If they don't follow through, it is perfectly reasonable for me to respond with a chargeback based on their reputation. The idea that we should be patient and let a company lie to us is ludicrous. The "just be happy" if it shows up attitude is just as silly. If I pay for goods, I expect the goods I paid for to be delivered on a timely manner and for those goods to be as ordered. I get what you're saying. LD have f!@ked up before, why trust them now? Why get mad if they don't ship? What I'm saying is that I'm fine trusting them, but when they break my trust, I will act accordingly. I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't think it's fair to respond to a delay by LD with a nuclear option when, in most cases, any other retailer would probably be shown a bit more grace IF one is going to hold them to the standards of being an honest and fair company. Justifying an action a typical retailer wouldn't get by pointing out their track record just means they shouldn't be expected to behave like an honest and competent company to begin with. It seems a little unfair to expect them to behave like any other retailer but threaten to treat them like LD if they don't meet that expectation. I think context and prior history are fair to consider when dealing in business. You may disagree, but that's like, your opinion, man. Whatever happens, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I waited FOREVER for my J17's to show up. I was never aggressive with G. I emailed them a few times, but was always courteous. I just feel comfortable being more aggressive with LD because of their past history. Let's agree to disagree. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 9:57:04 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here... I understand those who received their orders and were pleased with the result, but I don't understand those who are ordering expecting to skewer them if projections aren't immediately met. |
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Post by DigDug on May 17, 2015 10:08:58 GMT -6
It may be that some feel that LD has turned a courner (getting a second shop, though I'm not sure if its running). Or that RTW is a different buisness model then the MTO and could be considered more feasible to recieve. If LD had come out with a WorkShirt I think I'd have them cancel my orders, give me store credit, and buy one off the shelf (though without a pic to prove it, I'm still not trusting that he has 500 pairs). Anyway IMO this buisness is not sustainable and someone's going to get burned. Really whats 500 pairs x $35 = 17-20k . How far is that money going to go... (Might go far if he uses it on a new bike  |
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Post by thenakeddenim on May 17, 2015 10:10:07 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here... I understand those who received their orders and were pleased with the result, but I don't understand those who are ordering expecting to skewer them if projections aren't immediately met. When you buy something that is already made (off the shelves), how long do you expect it to deliver? For example you bought something from Amazon, how long do you feel is right from the moment to click to order till you get the actual product? Within a week no? Of course people are going to skewer them if they don't meet expectations. The way we have been cheated, the way Roman didn't admit his mistakes and presume that his products are worth more than 6 months wait and then not even an apology, just a "If you can't wait, just get a refund". What will you feel? I for one stayed away from this recent sales because it took me SO long to get a refund. I won't say I won't buy LD products anymore but I will think twice, thrice before paying someone who can't even keep this promise to customers. No doubt the only reason why we are still talking about this is probably the cheap price point. |
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Post by Winterland on May 17, 2015 10:11:02 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here... Nice denim for a great price but it does take patience. The shirts fit me well and I really can't buy a selvedge denim western shirt with snaps for close to the price paid anywhere else. The jeans look my size on paper but we will see how they come in. The one pair I did get were too small in the top block. Under spec. Did get refunded. Still waiting on a couple other orders that were messed up and returned. I do understand those who ordered from the Kickstarter or old website orders etc. and still don't have anything being upset. |
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Post by ickes on May 17, 2015 10:16:15 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here... I do understand those who ordered from the Kickstarter or old website orders etc. and still don't have anything being upset. speaking of which, 9 months and counting and I still have not received my KS shirt. carry on |
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Post by Old26 on May 17, 2015 10:39:14 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here... I understand those who received their orders and were pleased with the result, but I don't understand those who are ordering expecting to skewer them if projections aren't immediately met. Yeah, anyone here who's been around and read the threads who goes out and buys anything from these jokers expecting to get it is delusional at best. Are people really that hard up for a "bargain"? Seriously, take your money and buy from a reputable company. Gustin's pissed me off on some things, but I've got everything I've paid for. And they all fit - sans the Beasts being a bit small. Dunno, I'm glad I have a lot of jeans at this point because I don't know who I'd buy from when I need more... |
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Post by variable on May 17, 2015 10:57:02 GMT -6
Dunno, I'm glad I have a lot of jeans at this point because I don't know who I'd buy from when I need more... From someone who delivers? Heh.  |
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Post by thenakeddenim on May 17, 2015 10:57:53 GMT -6
I do understand those who ordered from the Kickstarter or old website orders etc. and still don't have anything being upset. speaking of which, 9 months and counting and I still have not received my KS shirt. carry on Still sitting in your Ferrari waiting? Give them a honk, ask Roman out of the shop. Show him how a real Ferrari looks like. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:57:52 GMT -6
It may be that some feel that LD has turned a courner (getting a second shop, though I'm not sure if its running). Or that RTW is a different buisness model then the MTO and could be considered more feasible to recieve. If LD had come out with a WorkShirt I think I'd have them cancel my orders, give me store credit, and buy one off the shelf (though without a pic to prove it, I'm still not trusting that he has 500 pairs). Anyway IMO this buisness is not sustainable and someone's going to get burned. Really whats 500 pairs x $35 = 17-20k . How far is that money going to go... (Might go far if he uses it on a new bike They gotta start somewhere. Make that small change money, reinvest that, make some more money, reinvest again, until the business grows exponentially. It's either that or fold, and it doesn't seem like he's going to be folding anytime soon. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 11:02:25 GMT -6
I understand those who received their orders and were pleased with the result, but I don't understand those who are ordering expecting to skewer them if projections aren't immediately met. When you buy something that is already made (off the shelves), how long do you expect it to deliver? For example you bought something from Amazon, how long do you feel is right from the moment to click to order till you get the actual product? Within a week no? Of course people are going to skewer them if they don't meet expectations. The way we have been cheated, the way Roman didn't admit his mistakes and presume that his products are worth more than 6 months wait and then not even an apology, just a "If you can't wait, just get a refund". What will you feel? I for one stayed away from this recent sales because it took me SO long to get a refund. I won't say I won't buy LD products anymore but I will think twice, thrice before paying someone who can't even keep this promise to customers. No doubt the only reason why we are still talking about this is probably the cheap price point. Fair point, but why go through that headache now? Unless you're willing to assume the risk, and there is much risk involved with purchasing from LD, why go in if you have zero trust for LD? They'll be pushing out more RTW products down the line, if all goes to plan. If you don't want to assume the risk, why not just wait until all is said and done? I'm sure they'll run more sales later, again that is if all goes to plan. |
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Post by julian on May 17, 2015 11:14:39 GMT -6
At this stage I don't know why anyone would buy from this guy. It blows my mind - assuming they have the knowledge we do here... I understand those who received their orders and were pleased with the result, but I don't understand those who are ordering expecting to skewer them if projections aren't immediately met. While I do agree that anyone who's had a chance to cast their eyes over various threads on this forum should/must know what to expect from Lawless by now, I do think there's a world of difference between having previously ordered the heavily customised jeans that we were told in advance would take 2 to 3 months to arive (OK, it was double that... and counting) and ordering RTW pairs that Lawless are taking photos of and saying they have on hand and ready to ship. In fact, even if you use the same (appalling) time scales as above, the 48 hour 'processing time' should equate to around 4 or 5 days before they physically ship the orders of the RTW pairs. That said, I guess Lawless now have roughly 10 days in order to save themselves. If people are still without their RTW jeans after that point, we'll know - conclusively - that it was all a big money-making lie. |
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Post by Old26 on May 17, 2015 11:18:38 GMT -6
At this point, it has nothing to do with dates per se and everything to do with ethics. I see none. Lies, lies, and more lies.
I hate feeling this way, but I have seen nothing that tells me otherwise.
And every new pic of a biker wearing nice new gear makes me even more angry.
I think I'll take the #1/20 free pairs that I got - that's one of 20 sent to folks - and make a scarecrow in the yard...
***Edit. Maybe I missed something during my absence. Are people now OK with LD again? Just asking. Between this and the Alexander Leathers biz, I'm fed up with crooks selling gear...
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 11:23:13 GMT -6
I understand those who received their orders and were pleased with the result, but I don't understand those who are ordering expecting to skewer them if projections aren't immediately met. While I do agree that anyone who's had a chance to cast their eyes over various threads on this forum should/must know what to expect from Lawless by now, I do think there's a world of difference between having previously ordered the heavily customised jeans that we were told in advance would take 2 to 3 months to arive (OK, it was double that... and counting) and ordering RTW pairs that Lawless are taking photos of and saying they have on hand and ready to ship. In fact, even if you use the same (appalling) time scales as above, the 48 hour 'processing time' should equate to around 4 or 5 days before they physically ship the orders of the RTW pairs. That said, I guess Lawless now have roughly 10 days in order to save themselves. If people are still without their RTW jeans after that point, we'll know - conclusively - that it was all a big money-making lie. Yup, precisely. Give them a few weeks to prove themselves before risking your hard earned money in their product. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 11:42:55 GMT -6
At this point, it has nothing to do with dates per se and everything to do with ethics. I see none. Lies, lies, and more lies. I hate feeling this way, but I have seen nothing that tells me otherwise. And every new pic of a biker wearing nice new gear makes me even more angry. I think I'll take the #1/20 free pairs that I got - that's one of 20 sent to folks - and make a scarecrow in the yard... ***Edit. Maybe I missed something during my absence. Are people now OK with LD again? Just asking. Between this and the Alexander Leathers biz, I'm fed up with crooks selling gear... i'd guess that only about 7 of those promo pairs were shipped. my take on the rtw thing is that i get people being tempted by the price (and adventure of the 'unknown') aspect of them...but can't understand the extremes in view either way. no one should excuse them for saying that pairs will ship in 48hrs and they don't. 'just have patience' shouldn't be an answer. but...i also don't get the people that immediate indicate 'i'm ordering, but will bring down the hammer if they don't ship in 2 days...' that's just setting yourself up for frustration. it seems to me that the best course of action is simply to avoid them at all costs. i was told i'd get a refund last week for my remaining items. of course that hasn't happened yet, nor the additional actions they said they'd be taking. i'll give it another week before contact them...because it's not worth my frustration...but i'm in no way 'ok' with LD...even once i get some sort of closure on my orders. |
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Post by Winterland on May 17, 2015 11:59:24 GMT -6
***Edit. Maybe I missed something during my absence. Are people now OK with LD again? Just asking. Between this and the Alexander Leathers biz, I'm fed up with crooks selling gear... I think things are about the same. Possibly getting a little better as the backlog of old orders is getting smaller. At the same time, some have been waiting of course even longer as time goes on, so some frustration there I am sure. My advice for old orders, refunds etc. is to try to get them on the phone. While I do have some communication with Roman, I have been a regular customer when dealing with my orders. I have gotten the answering machine and called back 5 minutes later and get an answer. . |
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Post by Derek G on May 17, 2015 12:24:36 GMT -6
They are Indigoxwhite but the weave is tight, so there's not much weft popping through You mentioned that it's a fairly dense weave? Do you think they sewed up a little tighter as a result? Have you seen a lot of flex/stretch with break-in? I did see this denim in the shop when I was there last, I initially thought it was a Candiani denim by feel (as you described) and was pleasantly surprised to see it was Japanese. What fit did you get? Slim-straight or just straight? How is the front rise? I'm a fan of the G front rise specs on my slim straights, but the LD were about .5-.75" higher, which isn't bad but does feel a little high when I wear them. They seem to have sewn up fine, not a lot of stretch. I agree 1000% that this stuff could easily be mistaken for some Candiani....who knows, maybe it really is? I got the slim straights, I haven't broke out a tape on them yet, but the rise does seem a little high, not bad at all. Also, the RTW I ordered should be here tomorrow. I know a lot of you think I'm nuts to continue ordering, but I've had a very different experience than most. I guess because i didn't give them the chance to BS me. The only time I called them, was after they called me about the damaged fabric. Sure I waited 6 months, No, I didn't like it much, but I did receive nice product I'm happy with. So if the pair I get tomorrow are of similar quality to the jeans I already have in hand, I'll probably buy some more. |
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Post by matt on May 17, 2015 12:37:40 GMT -6
You mentioned that it's a fairly dense weave? Do you think they sewed up a little tighter as a result? Have you seen a lot of flex/stretch with break-in? I did see this denim in the shop when I was there last, I initially thought it was a Candiani denim by feel (as you described) and was pleasantly surprised to see it was Japanese. What fit did you get? Slim-straight or just straight? How is the front rise? I'm a fan of the G front rise specs on my slim straights, but the LD were about .5-.75" higher, which isn't bad but does feel a little high when I wear them. They seem to have sewn up fine, not a lot of stretch. I agree 1000% that this stuff could easily be mistaken for some Candiani....who knows, maybe it really is? I got the slim straights, I haven't broke out a tape on them yet, but the rise does seem a little high, not bad at all. Also, the RTW I ordered should be here tomorrow. I know a lot of you think I'm nuts to continue ordering, but I've had a very different experience than most. I guess because i didn't give them the chance to BS me. The only time I called them, was after they called me about the damaged fabric. Sure I waited 6 months, No, I didn't like it much, but I did receive nice product I'm happy with. So if the pair I get tomorrow are of similar quality to the jeans I already have in hand, I'll probably buy some more. We all anxiously await your feedback on the new RTW. I think if the rise on the slim straight sat a little lower, I'd be all over those Cones. Still may reconsider. |
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Post by Winterland on May 17, 2015 12:57:50 GMT -6
You mentioned that it's a fairly dense weave? Do you think they sewed up a little tighter as a result? Have you seen a lot of flex/stretch with break-in? I did see this denim in the shop when I was there last, I initially thought it was a Candiani denim by feel (as you described) and was pleasantly surprised to see it was Japanese. What fit did you get? Slim-straight or just straight? How is the front rise? I'm a fan of the G front rise specs on my slim straights, but the LD were about .5-.75" higher, which isn't bad but does feel a little high when I wear them. They seem to have sewn up fine, not a lot of stretch. I agree 1000% that this stuff could easily be mistaken for some Candiani....who knows, maybe it really is? I got the slim straights, I haven't broke out a tape on them yet, but the rise does seem a little high, not bad at all. Also, the RTW I ordered should be here tomorrow. I know a lot of you think I'm nuts to continue ordering, but I've had a very different experience than most. I guess because i didn't give them the chance to BS me. The only time I called them, was after they called me about the damaged fabric. Sure I waited 6 months, No, I didn't like it much, but I did receive nice product I'm happy with. So if the pair I get tomorrow are of similar quality to the jeans I already have in hand, I'll probably buy some more. Finding the perfect front and back rise seems to be a little bit tricky. It also can vary I think as you try different ones to find what you ultimately like. I thought I liked the Gustin slim fit and my Iron Hearts the best. I got a pair of Naked and Famous Weird Guy fit and they have become my favorite with their mid rise. I always ask what the back rise is when I only see the front rise mentioned as it seems just as important. Different body types seem suited for different rises better than others. Sometimes it's just a personal preference. |
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