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Post by brentkuz on Oct 25, 2014 11:48:06 GMT -6
Late 2013/ early 2014 I felt Gustin was releasing killer products at killer prices. The 2-4month wait was ok because deals were so good. Had some issues with products flaws, sizing etc. I took the hit because the deal was so good. The duffle was a great buy, awesome jeans for under 100$, 47$ for the first run of the heavy belt etc.
I was going to get a new wallet but at $90 that's a ton of money and it has me looking on etsy for another hand made option.
My question do you think Gustin is still a good deal for the wait and the inherent problems with crowdsourcing, mediocre return policy etc.
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Post by matt on Oct 25, 2014 12:06:50 GMT -6
It's a great question Brent - I think it's a yes and no answer. They still have a lot of the staples for a reasonable price point under $100 that we all took the plunge into Gustin with. It's clear that the new game changers in the market (Lawless and potentially others in the future) will reposition Gustin as not the economical answer to selvedge denim but the niche they seem to be slowly evolving themselves into. But yes, I think the pricing climb is starting to negate the value proposition, especially with the sizing/fit errors. My first pair of G's were the Rainbow Neps for $104 shipped. The Rainbow Nep Chambray is now selling almost a year later for $10 more shipped.
All recent issues considered, they have taken a few dings to their armor. I suppose it's best to view from 20,000 feet - those of us with the passion for raw denim are populating the forums and communities - but we only make up 10-20% of the G market.
To me, I think it really depends on the responses from Cody and the G team from the Q&A - I think if they give us some honest responses and transparency, it will go a long way to reinforce faith in their brand.
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Post by exophobe on Oct 25, 2014 12:07:30 GMT -6
I would say most of the time. They're still picking up fabrics that most of the denim companies are either overlooking, feel it's too kitschy, or charge hundreds of dollars for. What I'm wishing Gustin would do is start modifying and adapting their business model, since all the complaints that have people looking are in things that giant companies would have a hard time adapting to, but presumably, with their model, Gustin wouldn't.
For example, one of their strongest supporters (Old26) has been trying to get them to release a 3xl for months, which would seemingly be just an adjusted pattern in the same dimensions (of course, this stems from a Gustin Large being a Medium, an XL being a Large -- by general sizing standards) -- seemingly a matter of adjusting the existing pattern by a standard ratio. At least 15 people are begging for contrast stitch black jeans -- I don't want them, but that's me -- yet campaign after campaign, only tonal stitch. These are issues that are resolved by maintaining an open line of communication with their customers, which is where Gustin is falling behind right now. They are diversifying their product lines, but are staunchly against any customer input unless it's "that product is fabulous".
That said, there's no apparent reason they should be listening to anyone else because I would guess they're still funding at least 95% of their campaigns. A bunch of people hate the CPO, yet they've fully funded three runs of it in about a week, and are well on the way to funding the other three. I believe only one workshirt failed to fund (RIP Rusty), and it was allowed a full run where those red and sea blue denim were canceled (that launched with the Olive -- can't wait) after two days and there have been more questions about where those went than the failed shirt. I think, however, this is where they felt the community had turned on them, which led to this current work to remove the community page and close down communication lines. However they seem to have missed that their model is hugely dependent on trust, and this has negatively impacted my view of them as a company, and certainly encouraged me to start looking elsewhere for better value. Through that, however, I have determined that they definitely throw out a lot more cool denim than any other brand.
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Post by ickes on Oct 25, 2014 12:09:28 GMT -6
brentkuz; in general, no they are not still a good deal.
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Post by exophobe on Oct 25, 2014 12:19:36 GMT -6
It's a great question Brent - I think it's a yes and no answer. They still have a lot of the staples for a reasonable price point under $100 that we all took the plunge into Gustin with. It's clear that the new game changers in the market (Lawless and potentially others in the future) will reposition Gustin as not the economical answer to selvedge denim but the niche they seem to be slowly evolving themselves into. But yes, I think the pricing climb is starting to negate the value proposition, especially with the sizing/fit errors. My first pair of G's were the Rainbow Neps for $104 shipped. The Rainbow Nep Chambray is now selling almost a year later for $10 more shipped. All recent issues considered, they have taken a few dings to their armor. I suppose it's best to view from 20,000 feet - those of us with the passion for raw denim are populating the forums and communities - but we only make up 10-20% of the G market. To me, I think it really depends on the responses from Cody and the G team from the Q&A - I think if they give us some honest responses and transparency, it will go a long way to reinforce faith in their brand. Regarding the pricing climb, I really don't see it. The Cone Blue x Black were $91 at the beginning of the year, the latest run was $91. Heavy Americans are still running at the same price I got them for over a year ago. The Italian fabrics have climbed a bit, but it actually seems pretty consistent across the board. The more rare Japanese fabrics are higher priced, but always have been, and if you look in the market and actually find them, they tend to run at least twice what Gustin is charging. If I recall correctly, the chambrays have been around $100 since they launched them, some more expensive than others. From that perspective, they have always been nearly 20% more expensive than the vast majority of indigo denim from Gustin, rainbow nep included (Rainbow Nep have typically been slow funders). Simply put, the way their business model works, they are always going to be subject to increases in the cost of fabric and labor. They don't keep any stock on hand (mostly) and the runs and fabric purchases are so small they require creative purchasing and negotiating to keep it at wholesale prices -- but don't think that their vendors don't know that they have them by the balls. You absolutely have a point about the Q&A, I'm curious how (and honestly if) they'll be answered. |
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Post by Old26 on Oct 25, 2014 12:23:43 GMT -6
Some items yes. Heavy Americans good deal. I think the new watch NATO is good too. I normally spend $120-$150 for a good strap. So a NATO in Horween at $56 is fair - not awesome, but fair.
I'm not even sure what I'd buy today to be honest. If the CPO was in a 3XL and had fewer pockets, I'd try one. Same with the Work Shirts. Alas, none to be found in my size.
All that said, I'm really hoping and rooting for Lawless/Roman to get things going. There is so much potential there that I could see spending a lot on their gear...
I think for me, the assumed "we don't care what you guys think" feeling I get is what drove me away. Roman, OTOH, seems almost too willing to bend over backwards for buyers and potential buyers.
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Post by matt on Oct 25, 2014 12:30:56 GMT -6
I agree on the pricing of the Italian denims and chambrays traditionally being higher, but consider the peek behind the curtain that we've all been provided from Lawless' transparency and it further reinforces the point that Gustin isn't looking to move from their 50% margins ( source). As you so brilliantly stated, the runs keep getting backed. Their success rate on campaigns is still over 99%. And it's not like the vocally frustrated have taken to Yelp or some other channel to cast any doubt where the masses would be more informed. The vocal opposition has populated the community thread when a campaign goes awry and it's unfortunately (or fortunately from G's perspective) buried in the stream of consciousness that is that community thread. |
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Post by exophobe on Oct 25, 2014 13:02:48 GMT -6
As you so brilliantly stated, the runs keep getting backed. Their success rate on campaigns is still over 99%. And it's not like the vocally frustrated have taken to Yelp or some other channel to cast any doubt where the masses would be more informed. The vocal opposition has populated the community thread when a campaign goes awry and it's unfortunately (or fortunately from G's perspective) buried in the stream of consciousness that is that community thread. That's part of why I think it's folly for them to abandon the community page and leave it to the forums of the internet at large. I'm sure there's a better reason for it, and I'm hoping that's addressed in the A part of the Q&A. They might be built on a model where they assume that people will be supporters for about a year and then move on to the more boutique brands, and assuming there are continually people becoming dissatisfied with fast fashion and questionable labor practice they will always have a stream of new customers. I sincerely hope this isn't the case and we're just seeing the growing pains of a young company with young management -- otherwise I think I'd feel like I've been duped. |
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Post by DigDug on Oct 25, 2014 13:47:52 GMT -6
Yes and No (a true Gustin answer  . Clearly there's some price creep. For example the KingZims, for some yes (me), others no. There are clearly other brands with Zim and 18oz. But I only found them for $250+ . I like the Gustin slim cut so I stuck with Gustin (and hopeing the size is right. so for me it was worth the $75 savings and a fit I like. In compared to LawLess. Its easy to leave your wife when you have a girlfriend on the side. If lawless wasn't around how would we feel about Gustins value? This will be a good question a year from now when Lawless,Taylor Stitch have more reviews and after there all the sales are gone and reviews are in. |
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Post by wisdom on Oct 25, 2014 14:16:04 GMT -6
Some items yes. Heavy Americans good deal. I think the new watch NATO is good too. I normally spend $120-$150 for a good strap. So a NATO in Horween at $56 is fair - not awesome, but fair. I'm not even sure what I'd buy today to be honest. If the CPO was in a 3XL and had fewer pockets, I'd try one. Same with the Work Shirts. Alas, none to be found in my size. All that said, I'm really hoping and rooting for Lawless/Roman to get things going. There is so much potential there that I could see spending a lot on their gear... I think for me, the assumed "we don't care what you guys think" feeling I get is what drove me away. Roman, OTOH, seems almost too willing to bend over backwards for buyers and potential buyers. I agree.. I'm more put off by the "F' it" attitude than anything else. They're the consummate supplier, in that they provide a set of goods, but not a true partner. They do make a small effort (or semblance of an effort) to incorporate community ideas, but they're nowhere near as collaborative as I think most of us would like. This is the difference between a business started by an enthusiast and a business started by an artisan.. or, to grossly generalize, the difference between the typical business school mentality and a trade/craft mentality. I think we all need to remember that Gustin started with a pretty high level of engagement (closer to Lawless than Gustin '14, at least). I think Lawless is different (yes, I know how I sound) because they are run by craftsmen/women.. not business people. Here's to hoping  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 14:19:53 GMT -6
Well, Gustin was never a great deal if you take the actual mechanics of their model into account. Before you say WTF...hear me out. I'm not slagging Gustin at all. I've bought their stuff and liked most of what I've bought but I have never felt like I was getting a break or something for nothing. Being a Gustin customer is a simple mental trade of less money spent for less service.
The model requires two things that would be absurd in a normal "buying selvege jeans from a retail outlet".
1 -You have to loan them money for 2 months on average, interest free and if they fail to deliver or the stuff is off spec, you get credit which is just them giving themselves an extension on the interest free loan you provided and they don't even have to define terms. It's up to you to buy something else or just let them keep rolling with your money in hand.
2- You have to sign up for a indeterminate lead time on a delivery that is impossible to guarantee in several ways that are basic services in the retail sector. Is the stuff going to be to spec? Will it come on time? What is "on time" anyway since the delivery dates are specified in months, not a day or even specific week. A pair of jeans on a shelf in a shop are built, passed QC and fit can be verified right there.
With Gustin you are trading the experience of walking into a shop, looking at various lines of jeans, picking your favorite and then trying it on and knowing without a doubt that they fit and are free of errors, for the wholesale cost discount. So was it ever a "great deal"? No, it was and remains a simple economic trade based on what a person values in the process of acquiring some clothing. A great deal would be buying IH or something similar at wholesale with no lead time. Gustin is not delivering that and to be fair, no one could if they expected to stay in business.
Yes there are other factors, lots of fabrics, the perception of transparency and at times waiting on a shipment can be fun in the same way kids wait for Christmas.
16 oz Cone jeans at 80 bucks are a good price if your own values allow you to take the risks above. The oxfords? No way IMHO, not even close. They're built to a lower quality standard than Jcrew and cost about as much and you have to sit around for two months to even try the thing on. Basic stuff like stitch count being lower and hanging threads are not points that can be argued. They're just facts about build quality. The coolest rare chambray means jack shit if the buttons fall off. The rest of the line is all over the map and more personal value choices....
No free lunch in business.
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Post by Dirty_Denim on Oct 25, 2014 14:29:05 GMT -6
NO!
For these personal reasons:
1-To me Gustin is an option, NOT the answer. I shop with RRL but buy from Gustin. I wont jump on Gustin to go shopping like I would say a RRL or even a JCREW. There has to be certain things aligned for me to want to buy from Gustin. Its a pick & choose type of brand
2- bringing in Items that are in the $200 range that I would rather spend $300 & get something that kills it on all fronts. $200 is way to close to something better. For instance I would much rather buy a Tellason chore at $220 over anything Gustin puts out at $140 & they make their stuff in the same place. The style alone warrants a higher price to me. Gustin is very plain & seams to get it wrong almost anytime they try to make something great. CPO & CHORE to name the most obvious. Cool fabrics made into ehh designs is a waste. They are very close to being a fabric broker who just sells nice fabrics
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Post by DigDug on Oct 25, 2014 14:31:22 GMT -6
Some items yes. Heavy Americans good deal. I think the new watch NATO is good too. I normally spend $120-$150 for a good strap. So a NATO in Horween at $56 is fair - not awesome, but fair. I'm not even sure what I'd buy today to be honest. If the CPO was in a 3XL and had fewer pockets, I'd try one. Same with the Work Shirts. Alas, none to be found in my size. All that said, I'm really hoping and rooting for Lawless/Roman to get things going. There is so much potential there that I could see spending a lot on their gear... I think for me, the assumed "we don't care what you guys think" feeling I get is what drove me away. Roman, OTOH, seems almost too willing to bend over backwards for buyers and potential buyers. I agree.. I'm more put off by the "F' it" attitude than anything else. They're the consummate supplier, in that they provide a set of goods, but not a true partner. They do make a small effort (or semblance of an effort) to incorporate community ideas, but they're nowhere near as collaborative as I think most of us would like. This is the difference between a business started by an enthusiast and a business started by an artisan.. or, to grossly generalize, the difference between the typical business school mentality and a trade/craft mentality. I think we all need to remember that Gustin started with a pretty high level of engagement (closer to Lawless than Gustin '14, at least). I think Lawless is different (yes, I know how I sound) because they are run by craftsmen/women.. not business people. Here's to hoping I'd agree you. It's becoming clearer to me that they are (want to be) a brand and not the the small supplier they once were, who was engaged with there community. I'm going through detox/withdrawals (I'm getting more done at work now!) I wish they would put up a better fight for there "brand" and not assume that the community would fight for them (I/we do/ did but its got tiresome). But ill still back things there if I like them and a good value (maybe there nato strap, need a good watch first). I cant hold it against them that they want to move there buisness mainstream. That being said, I'm alittle worried that we may not hear from Cody. That may be a deal breaker for me. |
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Post by quick on Oct 25, 2014 14:48:07 GMT -6
The Heavy American is a good deal. Seems like more frequently now, Gustin is offering lower weight denims for much more expensive than they used to and raising prices on some old favorites like the Gray Silks and Super Heavy.
If their margin is 50%... (I'm no business major but this seems very high), then they shouldnt be so quick on raising prices.
I feel like pretty much every shirt and jacket is overpriced.
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Post by matt on Oct 25, 2014 15:34:27 GMT -6
I'm not sure if it's an exercise in futility or the definition of insanity (or both) that inspires us to vent about a business model that we're (potentially) not influential enough to change. Rereading some of the original blog posts from last year on Gustin, especially from Stephen and Josh (An Update on Gustin from the Founders), I feel that there was still a sense of transparency and humility even with their success in breaking into and transforming the raw denim industry. While I've never questioned their passion, their words have become more and more shallow over eight months. My favorite line from it: "We were often asked: “It’s great that you’re selling jeans for $81, but don’t you think you could be more profitable and not lose that many customers if you raised the price to $120?”."  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 15:52:32 GMT -6
this week they offered what...6 different denim options at under $100. a couple of those were under $90...denims coming from Italy, Japan, the US...a variety of weights, and one was an unsanforized denim. Yep, you have to wait...and Yep, there have been sizing issues (for some more than others)...but the staples haven't gone up all that much in pricing. Shirts are, and always have been over priced for their quality. I've never understood why people rave about them other than fabric selection. Their leather products come in at or around the same prices as Etsy shops and other small outfits...which isn't bad, but not a great deal either.
DirtyD mentioned the delta between some other brands, but in the cases cited there's still a 40-50% increase in price. In the case of some of the larger imported brands, you can get similar prices but only when timed with a sale.
In terms of community feedback...there's been a lot of flack for them not incorporating design elements, but they have implemented a 37" waist, tall shirting option, slim cut, thicker buttons, heavy denim...etc. They have taken feedback...not all perfectly...and not all that we'd like...but you can't selectively forget what they have done.
I've come to think we're a small chunk of their customer base. If you look at the feedback on FB, Reddit, or IG their designs are getting raves (including the CPO). Obviously things are getting backed at a steady pace. I actually think they're trying to find their demographic and are hitting a larger base and probably their own desires with the stuff they're putting out than if they strictly listened to this group. It's disappointing for me as well as many here...but I don't hold it against them for not making things exactly like I'd want. I don't NEED to buy everything that Gustin makes. Some people seem personally offended if G releases something they don't like...which I've never understood.
As others have said, the thing that rubs me the wrong way about Gustin recently is the detachment from the community. It gives me less excitement, less a feeling of being part of it all. That said...it's not like Tellason or Taylor Stitch or several of the other brands often discussed here have their own community pages and directly interact with their customer base any more regularly than we've seen from Cody or Stephen.
I'm not nearly as enamored with Gustin as I once was...but that's partly because I'm well stocked on denim and their shirts are overpriced IMO. The potential that Lawless represents is exciting...but I also think it's enabled people to be more vocal against G than they would otherwise be.
/rambleoff
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Post by brentkuz on Oct 25, 2014 16:05:30 GMT -6
I am not impressed with the shirting for the price. $76 is a good chunk of change for a shirt. Lots of loose strings, placket being off. Chambray shirting I like and hope to back a heavy one when it comes out especially with the new buttons.
Leather goods I'm on the fence about now and they seem to be jumping.
Price increase to say a few. Silk blends jumped, heavy belts, duffles jumped, though we can't compare to old offerings seems the jackets are going up in price and new shirts are higher than before. Of course they still have the lower priced offerings. $69 for an oxford was always too much for me.
Hopefully the work shirts are of good quality and hopefully they release a heavy flannel and heavy chambray soon.
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Post by brentkuz on Oct 25, 2014 16:08:05 GMT -6
Oh and as for customer service. I got the feeling at first Gustin would really make sure they took care of you if something was really messed up. Now it feels like it isn't that big of deal. I received the wrong size pair of jeans like the tagged size was off. Never have I received an order from Gap, Nordstroms or Jcrew that was off like that. Just didn't feel like they thought that was an issue
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Post by Derek G on Oct 25, 2014 16:33:39 GMT -6
All great points fellas...I think that the HA's are still a fair deal, not a great one. I too am disappointed in the lack of involvement. I don't think we'll be getting Christmas cards this year The only thing lately they have given us is the black X red and black x green. I can't believe they wouldn't make Scott a shirt,there might be a good reason, but, there again, they have failed to explain why. Look how long it took to get a size 37, The skinny fit, and the tall sizes in shirts. We did eventually get them, but I felt they kept us in the dark. There is definitely a disconnect going on, that I feel leaves many of us feeling betrayed...especially those that have sunk 3+ grand into their products. Lawless offering customization at 79 dollars changes the perspective on whether Gustin is still a good deal, for me anyways. Let us remember though, Lawless' prices are only for a limited time. I'd guess that eventually we'll see some price creep from them too sooner or later. The Gustin shirts and jackets...I don't think they've ever been a GREAT deal, but reasonable I guess. I never backed one only because It's very hard for me to find shirts that fit. I HAVE to try them on. The Duffels? fahgettaboutit...no way. I don't care how upgraded the hardware is...197 for a glorified gym bag? Not this po boy. I still wish Gustin luck and success, But I really think they need to up their game at the prices they're asking now. Edit: I still think G was a good starting point for me to get into the raw denim game |
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Post by brentkuz on Oct 25, 2014 16:36:08 GMT -6
The original duffle was a great deal. Then they jumped and now the new ones jumped even more.
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Post by matt on Oct 25, 2014 19:19:53 GMT -6
Lawless offering customization at 79 dollars changes the perspective on whether Gustin is still a good deal, for me anyways. Let us remember though, Lawless' prices are only for a limited time. I'd guess that eventually we'll see some price creep from them too sooner or later. The Gustin shirts and jackets...I don't think they've ever been a GREAT deal, but reasonable I guess. I never backed one only because It's very hard for me to find shirts that fit. I HAVE to try them on. The Duffels? fahgettaboutit...no way. I don't care how upgraded the hardware is...197 for a glorified gym bag? Not this po boy. I still wish Gustin luck and success, But I really think they need to up their game at the prices they're asking now. Edit: I still think G was a good starting point for me to get into the raw denim game Keep in mind - our friends at Lawless have extended the KS pricing beyond just the KS campaign. However, those of us who participated in the KS offering have our prices locked in for 5 years! And even for those who didn't get the benefit of the KS pricing, look at how they are offering everyone the opportunity to get the same great deal. Will it last 5 years for everyone else? I hope so. Regardless, there's a huge chunk of supporters who are locked in at the prices offered currently. We don't have to worry about the price creep happening. Roman has pointed out here and in person, that while he's making a nice profit off of his denim, he sees an opportunity to establish a new standard in the market by offering his "craft" at a great price. He's controlling the quality and customer service - think about it, it's a missed opportunity for Gustin since they opted to move away from this model. |
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Post by joe24 on Oct 25, 2014 19:38:09 GMT -6
I was wondering about the classic belt. Is this considered a good deal or are there better options out there?
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Post by exophobe on Oct 25, 2014 20:04:45 GMT -6
I was wondering about the classic belt. Is this considered a good deal or are there better options out there? I'm not bummed about the price paid for my heavyweight belts, even at the increased prices. Brown one shows up Monday. |
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Post by Derek G on Oct 25, 2014 20:08:27 GMT -6
I was wondering about the classic belt. Is this considered a good deal or are there better options out there? I think one of our members makes some belts...I forget who exactly. Hopefully whom ever it was will see this and chime in. Also check the accessories section, there's a thread about belts. perhaps you can find something there Edit: I think it was stinky that makes the belts. |
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Post by wisdom on Oct 25, 2014 20:20:40 GMT -6
I was wondering about the classic belt. Is this considered a good deal or are there better options out there? I've got the Gustin classic belt in 32.. I don't like the snaps or how they're affixed and despise the buckle. It's too narrow and square for my tastes. The leather is pretty nice and thick, though, just am not a fan of the design or buckle. ..my personal opinion is that you can get a better belt on etsy (or we can revive the Amish connection) for either the same amount of less. My favorite belt, so far, is a belt I bought from etsy. Nice, thick, 10-12oz leather and simple, classy buckle. There are a few guys here who can fab up a sweet belt that'll last you the good part of a lifetime for about the same or less and there's a kickstarter going on right now for an interesting belt that's engineered "railroad style" (no weak links.. all metal connections). If you're in the states and you can do a 32 belt, I'd be happy to ship mine out to you for like $15 (I'll cover shipping). It's been oiled and treated with Obenauf's, so is pretty set for the aging and darkening process. I need to thin out my collection to make room for a new belt or two (hopefully my wife won't notice) so my intentions are honestly less than noble  |
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. Clearly there's some price creep. For example the KingZims, for some yes (me), others no. There are clearly other brands with Zim and 18oz. But I only found them for $250+ . I like the Gustin slim cut so I stuck with Gustin (and hopeing the size is right. so for me it was worth the $75 savings and a fit I like. 
