|
|
Post by Mattbert on Jan 23, 2015 9:05:59 GMT -6
One doesn't buy a luxury sports car because it's reasonably priced. They're a passion play, and priced as such. I've never read a bad review of an m car, and you have to give BMW some credit for keeping the muscle car thing going while American manufacturers struggled with identity. If speed to money ratio is your concern, then your choices are wrx, gtr. Neither of which are particularly pretty. You can mix Porsche in there, but the gtr is going to be a better "value". I left 2 seaters out since the M is a four seater. And please feel free to point out the BMW muscle car you speak of? I'm no expert car guy or anything, but I don't think I'm alone in considering the classic e36 M3 as something of an industry benchmark by which all subsequent luxury sports sedans were judged for quite a while. You gotta give BMW some credit for coming up with that archetype and setting the standard for everyone else. I haven't really followed developments in the performance auto space lately, but I always used to think of BMW (and the M3 in particular) as not necessarily the best in class at any one thing (except arguably handling, according to some) but definitely good to great at everything which makes for a magnificent all-rounder. You could find a comparable car that's more powerful, but it might not be as good through the corners. You could find a comparable car that had more grip, but it might not have as nice a ride. You could maybe even find a comparable car that beat the M3 in every aspect of performance, but it might not have the creature comforts that would make it a realistic daily driver for most people. Maybe that's no longer the case (well, it definitely isn't since BMW killed off the 3 series, but you get my point). And this is coming from a guy who now drives around in a putt-putt VW Golf TDI (with paddle shifters, because hey why not on a diesel?) so take it with a healthy dose of salt, but the M3 became synonymous with the luxury sport sedan market for a reason. It was a great, superbly well-balanced car. |
|
|
|
Post by ickes on Jan 23, 2015 9:26:24 GMT -6
bottom line, Germans make damn good products.
|
|
|
|
Post by exophobe on Jan 23, 2015 9:32:58 GMT -6
My point on the Muscle Car thing is that while all manufacturers (lets leave Mercedes out of this, even though they make muscle cars, too) in Europe were going smaller, and putting out high efficiency 4 and 5 cylinders, BMW kept on the M Series, bigger, more powerful engines, in a 3 series (plus the M5, but sort of a different beast.
Okay, I'm rambling and out of focus cause I'm in a hurry, but here's my point. The Muscle Car came out of Detroit by putting their biggest truck engine inside their smallest platform, and seeing what happens. Detroit forgot how to do this when they got routed by the Japanese auto industry, which is about when the M series was born. For which the concept was, essentially "how big of an engine do you reckon we can put in that 3 series?". So the spirit of the muscle car lived on through that. As we came into the 2000s Mercedes caught on, and Audi picked up on it after V.A.G. started differentiating their company catalog.
|
|
|
|
Post by bentin on Jan 23, 2015 9:37:24 GMT -6
Made. Now they just make fat, fancy things with flat torque curves, turbos and silly two pedal transmissions. I miss my ugly car:  Sold it a couple of years ago after a dozen years and 150k miles. Haven't found anything suitable to replace it with and we just had our first kid, so I need a back seat. Finding a manual, rwd wagon or sedan that isn't pushing 4k pounds is proving to be impossible. This is the wife's current baby hauler, it's a little porky and has a boring transmission, but it's the last of the older E chassis BMW's with hydraulic steering snd its about as fun as possible for what she needs. Although it may get replaced with a Macan soon.  |
|
|
|
Post by Old26 on Jan 23, 2015 9:41:22 GMT -6
bottom line, Germans make damn good products. As do the Japanese, Koreans, Americans. It's hard to find bad cars now. Arguably we are in another golden era of autos. There's some serious good shit out there - goes for motorcycles too. |
|
|
|
Post by bentin on Jan 23, 2015 9:45:05 GMT -6
bottom line, Germans make damn good products. As do the Japanese, Koreans, Americans. It's hard to find bad cars now. Arguably we are in another golden era of autos. There's some serious good shit out there - goes for motorcycles too. Agreed. I'm driving a Mazda 3 now, it's so far from what I've driven recently but extremely cheap to operate, has a little lift-throttle-oversteer and the e-brake is reasonably strong. I'm strongly considering the ATS-V, Cadillac has their act together, the regular ATS is a better drivers car than the 3er, A4/S4 and old C Class. I haven't tried the new C Class yet, I'm waiting for them to stop sending only awd models. |
|
|
|
Post by Mattbert on Jan 23, 2015 10:02:38 GMT -6
Finding a manual, rwd wagon or sedan that isn't pushing 4k pounds is proving to be impossible. Ugh. No shit. I miss the days when you could stumble upon something like that and it would be (a) more fuel-efficient than an auto tranny because the manual gearboxes were lighter back then and (b) cheaper because the vast majority of the wagon-driving demographic wanted auto. Nowadays, a car like that is basically a f!@king unicorn in the US market. |
|
|
|
Post by bentin on Jan 23, 2015 10:11:24 GMT -6
Audi used to be the best hope for manual wagons, but then they killed the A4/S4 Avant for the U.S. And turned the A3/S3 into an auto only sedan. Jerks.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 10:15:26 GMT -6
bottom line, Germans make damn good products. As do the Japanese, Koreans, Americans. It's hard to find bad cars now. Arguably we are in another golden era of autos. There's some serious good shit out there - goes for motorcycles too. When it comes to American cars, I wouldn't be caught dead in a GM vehicle. Definitely Ford, love the styling and the handling is so damn "buttery" smooth on the Fusion, but not GM. I drive a Lexus ES350, and am considering trading it in for a Genesis coupe. Want a little power in my car before I have to ultimately trade it in for a minivan or some s* that all Korean males end up having to do when they get married. |
|
|
|
Post by ickes on Jan 23, 2015 10:18:23 GMT -6
bottom line, Germans make damn good products. As do the Japanese, Koreans, Americans. It's hard to find bad cars now. Arguably we are in another golden era of autos. There's some serious good shit out there - goes for motorcycles too. This is very true Scott. Have you guys seen that Ford is reintroducing the GT? No, not a Mustang GT but the GT. It was called a GT40 when they first introduced it. The new ones look sick. |
|
|
|
Post by Old26 on Jan 23, 2015 10:22:49 GMT -6
As do the Japanese, Koreans, Americans. It's hard to find bad cars now. Arguably we are in another golden era of autos. There's some serious good shit out there - goes for motorcycles too. When it comes to American cars, I wouldn't be caught dead in a GM vehicle. Definitely Ford, love the styling and the handling is so damn "buttery" smooth on the Fusion, but not GM. I drive a Lexus ES350, and am considering trading it in for a Genesis coupe. Want a little power in my car before I have to ultimately trade it in for a minivan or some s* that all Korean males end up having to do when they get married. Not all GM are bad, but I agree in general (no pun there). My Bro traded in his Bimmer 3 something for a Genesis - loves it. Says it's "better" than both of his previous Bimmers and he loved those cars. Even Kia now has some amazing hardware. I swore I'd never buy a Korean car, but those days are over. OTOH, having grown up and cut my teeth on fast and straight, I may just keep waiting to do the muscle car thing again. I've never owned MOPAR, always been between Ford and Chevy. Even Ford's new aluminum F-150 should be an amazing vehicle - ~800 lbs lighter than the steel iterations. I'm taking my son to AZ most likely to check out the B-J showroom and some other joints Matt told me about. Might go back to simple V-8's I can wrench on again. I won't get rid of my FJ Cruiser though - it's only knock is the mileage, but with gas now here at $2.40 a gallon, the pain is temporarily relieved. |
|
|
|
Post by Old26 on Jan 23, 2015 10:25:14 GMT -6
As do the Japanese, Koreans, Americans. It's hard to find bad cars now. Arguably we are in another golden era of autos. There's some serious good shit out there - goes for motorcycles too. This is very true Scott. Have you guys seen that Ford is reintroducing the GT? No, not a Mustang GT but the GT. It was called a GT40 when they first introduced it. The new ones look sick. Yep - my one regret was not trying to get one the first round before they took off. The prices were (relatively speaking) reasonable, and the cars skyrocketed in value after a couple years. Ford has it's shit together. Even the rental car I had (Focus I think) was damn good. |
|
|
|
Post by ickes on Jan 23, 2015 10:27:25 GMT -6
Another case to prove Old26 point; my friend made a surprise visit to my shop about a month ago in his new car to show me. He's pulling in and I'm looking at it thinking "damn, that's a nice looking car, what is it?". It almost had a European look to it. As I get closer I look to see what it is and it's a freakin HYUNDAI! I was impressed, |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 10:30:56 GMT -6
Another case to prove Old26 point; my friend made a surprise visit to my shop about a month ago in his new car to show me. He's pulling in and I'm looking at it thinking "damn, that's a nice looking car, what is it?". It almost had a European look to it. As I get closer I look to see what it is and it's a freakin HYUNDAI! I was impressed, Welcome to five years ago haha. Hyundai didn't surprise me, I knew they were on the up and up for the past decade. What did surprise me, though, was how drawn I was to Kia. That company did a complete turnaround in the last few years. Edit: ScottBott beat me to it. Edit2: I keep forgetting a decade ago means 2005 and not 2000, and a few years ago no longer means 2010. Hyundai has been on the up since the start of the millenium, and Kia has been getting their s* together since 2010. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 10:43:44 GMT -6
I think everyone is happy because I will have no contribution to this car thread. Already got in so much trouble with other car (watch too) forums and don't need the world to hate me more.
|
|
|
|
Post by ickes on Jan 23, 2015 10:50:10 GMT -6
Well I realize they've been on the up and up over the past 10 years or so devastitis but I think they've really stepped it up in the last several years and are producing something that I would actually consider buying. I guess that's what surprised me about my friends Hyandai, I was drawn to it much like you said you are to Kia. Admittedly though I don't pay attention to cars as much as I do trucks. I'm a pickup truck kind of dude. I have an F-150 and my next vehicle will probably be another F-150. I also dig classic muscle cars. My first vehicle was a 1969 Cougar which is a very underrated and under appreciated muscle car imo. My second vehicle was a 69 Mustang, sold that thing about 8 years ago  . |
|
|
|
Post by Mattbert on Jan 23, 2015 10:50:34 GMT -6
This is very true Scott. Have you guys seen that Ford is reintroducing the GT? No, not a Mustang GT but the GT. It was called a GT40 when they first introduced it. The new ones look sick. Yep - my one regret was not trying to get one the first round before they took off. The prices were (relatively speaking) reasonable, and the cars skyrocketed in value after a couple years. Ford has it's shit together. Even the rental car I had (Focus I think) was damn good. Agreed. I got quite a few Foci as rental cars when I lived in England--so these were baseline to mid-range trims, not the ST or anything--and they were friggin fantastic. Hell of a lot of fun to drive, especially on those sleepy back roads over there that are like 80% bends. |
|
|
|
Post by gaseousclay on Jan 23, 2015 10:58:43 GMT -6
I'm a pickup truck kind of dude. I have an F-150 and my next vehicle will probably be another F-150. i've been leaning towards getting a pick-up truck lately after having driven mid-size cars my whole life. I currently drive my wife's crappy '04 Ford Focus while she drives our '10 Honda CRV. The Ford is a great runner but i've been looking for something more reliable that can handle these rough Minnesota winters. I've looked at the F-150 but i'm also drawn to the Dodge RAM 1500. Unfortunately, i'd have to find something between '04-08 to make it remotely affordable. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 11:26:18 GMT -6
OTOH, having grown up and cut my teeth on fast and straight was this before you were in ca? (aren't you originally from back east?) one thing i miss about california is spirited driving through the bends of the foothills |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 11:32:18 GMT -6
And this is coming from a guy who now drives around in a putt-putt VW Golf TDI what year tdi? have you been relatively happy with it? we're considering a different car within the next 6 months and the recent tdis will be on the list. my friend had an '09 tdi jetta wagon that was surprisingly sprightly...very torquey. at the time they were also easy-ish to find in manual trans. the problem was that the '09s were fraught with issues...so many recalls. she basically had the entire fuel delivery system rebuilt on vw's dime, but never trusted it after that and dumped it for a subie forester. i'm hoping they've worked some of the kinks out by now. |
|
|
|
Post by exophobe on Jan 23, 2015 12:00:53 GMT -6
Made. Now they just make fat, fancy things with flat torque curves, turbos and silly two pedal transmissions. I miss my ugly car: Never driven one, but this is one of my favorite BMWs. |
|
|
|
Post by Mattbert on Jan 23, 2015 13:09:53 GMT -6
And this is coming from a guy who now drives around in a putt-putt VW Golf TDI what year tdi? have you been relatively happy with it? we're considering a different car within the next 6 months and the recent tdis will be on the list. my friend had an '09 tdi jetta wagon that was surprisingly sprightly...very torquey. at the time they were also easy-ish to find in manual trans. the problem was that the '09s were fraught with issues...so many recalls. she basically had the entire fuel delivery system rebuilt on vw's dime, but never trusted it after that and dumped it for a subie forester. i'm hoping they've worked some of the kinks out by now. 2012. Wifebert has the Jetta wagon*, same model year and also with the TDI engine. Hers is a manual because she is intractably militant about that. My Golf has the DSG gearbox, which I have really come to love because of the ability to just throw it in full auto when I'm sitting in traffic on my commute, which is not uncommon. And, come on...paddle shifters! How could I say no to that? The transitions are very, very quick, and it's all kinds of fun to zip up through the gears while never having to lift off the throttle. Full disclosure: I absolutely loathe the DSG gearbox on my mother-in-law's 2013 Tiguan (no paddles, just the tiptronic-style stick shifting option). Which is nuts, because the Tiguan has the same sporty 200-hp engine that VW puts in the GTI. I don't know why it's such a different experience compared to my Golf, but the DSG is just a complete f!@king dog in that Tiguan. It feels laggy as all hell and seems to have been programmed with really dumb shift points that effectively ensure you're perpetually overgeared and underpowered at typical surface street speeds between 25-45 mph. Blech. * This car is worth owning if for no other reason than it gives you a pretext to irritate the bejeezus out of your friends and family by adopting a comedy German accent and saying, "SCHPORT-VAH-GEN!" as often as possible in daily conversation.I'm 55,000 miles into mine, and Wifebert is closing in on 30,000 I think. Only significant maintenance issues have been a fuel injector recall (never had symptoms, and seems to have been mostly precautionary - VW made the fix in about 45 minutes, no charge) and the battery shitting the bed after about 18-24 months (happened on both cars, which makes me think it was a bad batch from the supplier rather than a fault with VW). Overall, I would say the cars have been exceptionally reliable. For my money, the TDI is solidly in the pantheon of the very best consumer automobile engines ever built. Performance is more than adequate for a "normal" car, mileage is outstanding, and the things are practically indestructible. What's not to like? As you say, both our TDIs are very torquey, especially in the low end. Being diesels, the power "curve" is more like a bar chart, but when the power does arrive there is plenty of it. When it comes to power, the standard 0-60 metric doesn't really interest me. The two things I focus on when I test drive a car are the performance when I push it from 30-60 (freeway onramp and I didn't see that 18-wheeler barreling down on me as I'm looking to merge in) and 55-75 (overtaking a slower vehicle at normal freeway speeds). I can coax a pretty peppy response out of that TDI if I drop a gear (or two) and really put my foot down. It's surprisingly good at the 55-75 bump; 30-60 could be better, but it's good enough to have prevented me from getting killed a few times. As for handling, Wifebert's schportvahgen isn't a dud at all, but it is a wagon and will never be confused with an S4 wagon or something of that ilk. The Golf is quite impressive. It's tuned between the standard Golf and the GTI, and feels much closer to the latter than the former to me. It's not quite as tight and grippy as the GTI, but it's not far off. Going around corners in the TDI is a treat; just a touch of body roll to get the heart pumping but fairly firmly planted unless I'm really pushing it. Other stuff? I think you'll have a tough time finding a nicer interior fit and finish on a car with a sticker price in the mid-to-high $20k range. The driver's seat in my Golf is a very nice place to be; extremely comfortable for me, even at 6'4". I love VW's controls. The layout is simple and intuitive and doesn't plaster the dash area with a shitload of buttons and sliders and digital stuff when a knob will do. I like knobs and other analog controls that I can operate by feel and don't require me to look at them. So full marks for VW because I can adjust pretty much everything I need to adjust in the car without ever taking my eyes off the road. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 13:38:08 GMT -6
Mattbert...thanks for the info. i have a mkv gti now. i always loathed that vw produced 4-door (5dr) gtis overseas, but refused to bring them here. as soon as they decided to change that with the mkv i jumped on one. my only minor regret is not waiting an extra couple of weeks for a manual trans. i have the dsg, which has been trouble-free, shifts amazingly fast in auto or manual mode, and paddle shifters! i just really prefer a full manual overall...guess my left foot needs something to do. i agree on the vw fit/finish/cockpit comfort...can't beat it for the price.
|
|
|
|
Post by brentkuz on Jan 23, 2015 18:52:17 GMT -6
Bmw did make some nice cars but now they do nothing for me. I really don't consider anything that has came out of Europe a muscle car. Ever.
I would say we are in the second coming of the performance age. The Feds are killing cars slowly but surely industry standards and regulation. Stinks my children will neve know what a real car felt like.
I can not say Korea has ever made a good car either.
When the Germans were make the E36 the japs were cranking out amazing performance cars hell they even had a gentleman's agreement in regards to power. Supra, RX-7, 300zx TT, Mits Vr-4's, GTR. Cranking out amazing cars.
I've had 22 cars if I remember correctly. About 10 of those turbos attached, bunch of AWD, now I'm on a RWD V8 kick.
Between the new z06, Shelby, gtr, hellcats it's a crazy time.
|
|
|
|
Post by brentkuz on Jan 23, 2015 18:54:41 GMT -6
Oh and my hate of Korean cars run deep. The Genesis turbo 2.0L has a 4b11 engine which as some of yu might know is the motor in the mitsubishi evo x. Only problem is they couldn't hold crap for power and they just kept breaking left and right. Buschur racing dabbled but the 2.0T just couldn't keep up.
|
|
. 