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Post by brentkuz on Jul 13, 2015 9:47:39 GMT -6
In Rhode Island we would go with a obtaining money under false pretense charge if we had probably cause that he was taking in money with no intent on delivering goods. This would need a decently large scale investigation and people to really come forward and give good statements. If he knew orders would NEVER be shipped and he was making as many sales as he could just to make money it could fly as a charge. Not easy at all since people are getting orders. Basically you would need inside sources. Other than that maybe tax or other white collared type crimes but I'm not FBI or the like.
Oh and Kahla if your ever in RI and want to talk selvedge hit me up. You answered plenty angry emails from me and I owe you a drink. Haha!
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Post by Dirty_Denim on Jul 13, 2015 10:45:39 GMT -6
Here is the thing. From what I know he intends to make the remaining orders BUT the way he got those orders knowing there was a big probability he wouldn't have the funds to complete those incoming orders is the issue . Knowing $35 doesn't cut what u need to keep the business running is also accepting you are likely going to fall short eventually. Is he stupid or calculated ? brentkuz has it exactly right and how i thought it would play out |
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Post by Dirty_Denim on Jul 13, 2015 10:46:58 GMT -6
Dirty_Denim - was orion23 your inside source to passing along the long list of open orders from this forum? That doesn't lend much confidence to seeing fulfillment if so. With both of you guys gone, I'm not seeing anyone worth visiting at the shop any more. Not that they'd have the gate unlocked to let anyone stop by. Although, I should stop by to see my buddies Roman and Laura just to hear the spin they put on us "haters, man" (Roman quote). I thoroughly enjoy knowing more than I let on when I visit the shop. beeranddenim makes a valid point. While some of us are collectively out an amount worthy of a small claim, the impact of a larger group would probably generate more results. That list of unfulfilled orders is probably a good starting point for a discussion with a lawyer, if everyone is not able to charge back at this point. Maybe   |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 12:04:47 GMT -6
It's pretty much done and dusted as far as non chargeback refunds, guys.
I will say, if I were sitting on credit card charges, I would chargeback immediately. Why wait this long for jeans? The deals were good but not that good. By all means wait if you want to but at the end you'll get something between just above Gustin quality down to no button joke fodder all the way to nothing at all. Not seeing the meat on the bone there.
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Post by ickes on Jul 13, 2015 12:31:24 GMT -6
The Ferrari man....it's all about the Ferrari man...if you just hold out long enough you will get your Ferrari!!
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Post by matt on Jul 13, 2015 12:37:35 GMT -6
The Ferrari man....it's all about the Ferrari man...if you just hold out long enough you will get your Ferrari!! Meanwhile, as Ickes has been staked out in his Ferrari outside of LD, they've been waiting for him to fall asleep each night and Roman's been quietly parting out the car around him to sell it to pay the suppliers. |
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Post by davelewis on Jul 13, 2015 13:05:34 GMT -6
In Rhode Island we would go with a obtaining money under false pretense charge if we had probably cause that he was taking in money with no intent on delivering goods. This would need a decently large scale investigation and people to really come forward and give good statements. If he knew orders would NEVER be shipped and he was making as many sales as he could just to make money it could fly as a charge. Not easy at all since people are getting orders. Basically you would need inside sources. Other than that maybe tax or other white collared type crimes but I'm not FBI or the like. Oh and Kahla if your ever in RI and want to talk selvedge hit me up. You answered plenty angry emails from me and I owe you a drink. Haha! Do do, do do, land shark! |
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Post by davelewis on Jul 13, 2015 13:20:23 GMT -6
orion23: I'm sorry I have to ask but do you know what happens to the 24oz Supima orders? I want to know about this also? Should we all just get chargebacks or play roulette with our outstanding orders? Who ran the IG? f!@k whoever blocked me. Sorry if it was you orion23As far as the Supima orders, consider this. In the IH interview, Giles had said that when they do a run of 25oz, they can get up to 90% waste on a run of denim, and the Japanese mill that does this, is very experienced. Now take the fact that VERY few people are skilled enough to use a flat fell machine, to sew this heavy denim, and you end up with a very difficult project. Then you have Roman who states he can basically overnight, make the denim, and crank out many pairs just doesn't add up. There is a lot of truth to the fact that if it just seems too good to be true, then it probably is. Pacific Blue was actually going to partner up in some fashion with this endevor, but in fact has long pulled out. Now go figure! |
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Post by brentkuz on Jul 13, 2015 13:21:16 GMT -6
Nuff taking legal jeans. Back to figuring out why my beach blew up.
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Post by ickes on Jul 13, 2015 13:53:31 GMT -6
The Ferrari man....it's all about the Ferrari man...if you just hold out long enough you will get your Ferrari!! Meanwhile, as Ickes has been staked out in his Ferrari outside of LD, they've been waiting for him to fall asleep each night and Roman's been quietly parting out the car around him to sell it to pay the suppliers. I'll never fall asleep cause luckily i've still got about a two months supply of METH LEFT!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought I was seeing/hearing someone/something outside the Ferrari at nights...and I swear it had four tires on it and a hood when I first rented it but then I thought I was just hallucinating. Dammit...looks like I'll end up buying this Ferrari even if it's just half the car it was when I rented it. Oh well, it will be just like a pair of Lawless jeans with no buttons...so see, Lawless really will be like the Ferrari of denim. Who needs the details anyways???!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 14:07:47 GMT -6
Guys, I'm really worried. "Ickes" talking about meth? He doesn't even skip leg day. I think his account has been comprimised. I just took an overnight flight to AZ on a stealth mission to get my 300 bucks back. I brought all my yoga shit just in case it came down to a "pose off" with Roman. I didn't want it to get rough that way, but if he went there, I wasnt going to back down. Reverse downward dog combo sun greeting, bitch. Anyway, I got there and my plans changed. I saw that horrible stuff had gone down earlier. I saw the Ferrari right away but not Ickes. Next to the Ferrari were 3 fat pit bulls, a pair of bloody IH633's and a severed grey ponytail, also in a small pool of blood. There was a Tec 22 under the car with no magazine in it, a sure sign that some hood stuff had gone down. No one was around, except the three dogs who were too full to bother with me. Has anyone talked to Ickes recently? Has anyone heard from Roman? Oh wait, wtf am I thinking. Has anyone heard from Ickes? I chased the dogs off and took this pic. The last weird detail....I looked up the company on the banner above the car. It's a new LLC with a person listed as RA Hater as the principle. It's like the car was being stripped and the funds diverted into some evil new venture. Oh yeah, there were some sewing machines in the other room but they were covered with cobwebs and Honda parts. Weird. Ickes? You out there brobrah?  |
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Post by ickes on Jul 13, 2015 14:10:42 GMT -6
Guys, I'm really worried. "Ickes" talking about meth? He doesn't even skip leg day. I think his account has been comprimised. I just took an overnight flight to AZ on a stealth mission to get my 300 bucks back. I brought all my yoga shit just in case it came down to a "pose off" with Roman. I didn't want it to get rough that way, but if he went there, I wasnt going to back down. Reverse downward dog combo sun greeting, bitch. Anyway, I got there and my plans changed. I saw that horrible stuff had gone down earlier. I saw the Ferrari right away but not Ickes. Next to the Ferrari were 3 fat pit bulls, a pair of bloody IH633's and a severed grey ponytail, also in a small pool of blood. There was a Tec 22 under the car with no magazine in it, a sure sign that some hood stuff had gone down. No one was around, except the three dogs who were too full to bother with me. Has anyone talked to Ickes recently? Has anyone heard from Roman? Oh wait, wtf am I thinking. Has anyone heard from Ickes? I chased the dogs off and took this pic. The last weird detail....I looked up the company on the banner above the car. It's a new LLC with a person listed as RA Hater as the principle. It's like the car was being stripped and the funds diverted into some evil new venture. Oh yeah, there were some sewing machines in the other room but they were covered with cobwebs and Honda parts. Weird. Ickes? You out there brobrah? Lmao!! |
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Post by beeranddenim on Jul 13, 2015 15:35:04 GMT -6
Oh! Salvage Ferrari. Not selvage Ferrari.
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Post by matt on Jul 13, 2015 16:00:59 GMT -6
@stevekas - One of my lead writers for the upcoming mocumentary on "Ruleless Denim".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 16:07:41 GMT -6
matt....I will play for free. I'm not even kidding.
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Post by matt on Jul 13, 2015 16:27:14 GMT -6
matt....I will play for free. I'm not even kidding. Maybe we need to start a separate thread recapping the glorious whirlwind of a denim honeymoon (to a serial killer) that was LD. I know from my limited experiences visiting the shop and hanging out with RA, I could tell a unique story. I can only imagine involving Sal for contribution to the saga. We may have a Star Wars-esque series. |
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Post by DigDug on Jul 13, 2015 17:34:28 GMT -6
Nuff taking legal jeans. Back to figuring out why my beach blew up. Dang! I wasn't far from this! What is wrong with RI beaches that Terrorist are planting IED's |
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Post by wisdom on Jul 13, 2015 19:25:41 GMT -6
orion23: I'm sorry I have to ask but do you know what happens to the 24oz Supima orders? kind of surprised that marc lewkowitz would have risked supima's name being so prominently used for this fiasco. then again, i'm not sure that it would have much long term impact on supima's overall business. If anything goes south here, LD will get the blame, not Supima.. good to hear that this project has a decent chance of flying, though. |
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Post by devastitis on Jul 13, 2015 20:24:38 GMT -6
kind of surprised that marc lewkowitz would have risked supima's name being so prominently used for this fiasco. then again, i'm not sure that it would have much long term impact on supima's overall business. If anything goes south here, LD will get the blame, not Supima.. good to hear that this project has a decent chance of flying, though. IIRC Roman stated here that there were projects he wished he didn't take on, but did, and now is contractually obligated to complete the orders. I'm pretty sure the Supimas were one of those. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 20:51:10 GMT -6
Roman will file bankruptcy, disappear or just duck/cover to get out of the arrangement with Supima and anyone else that has a leash on him. The numbers don't add up for him to continue with it at the price point he sold them at given that he's so far under water. He's already in the red...that deal adds more red. A contract is just a piece of paper, once any concerns about appearing solvent and prosperous go away, outstanding contracts are just legal obligations that can be reneged on with only the threat of a lawsuit to worry about. If you're already broke...the holder of the contract has little reason to lawyer up and spend money to squeeze blood from a stone. Once you sink to a certain point, you become nearly immune to ethics and laws because your creditors and partners can't get a penny from an empty wallet even if they sue you to hell and back. File BK, have shitty credit for seven years and move on with your life.
Strictly speaking, he's "contractually obligated" to deliver all the things we paid for but here we are and never mind the flat out theft of non refund cases on cancelled orders.
I think the conversations here get really detail oriented and academic and people are forgetting that none of what is legal/illegal matters if the principal people in question don't care about ethics or laws and have no resources.
I took a chance on the Supima 24ish oz jeans as well (and knew I was rolling the dice). I'd like to see them made but if it happens I'll buy y'all a round.
Get a chargeback if you can and go buy some real pants on Rakuten. It's not going to happen guys.
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Post by devastitis on Jul 13, 2015 21:28:50 GMT -6
Roman will file bankruptcy, disappear or just duck/cover to get out of the arrangement with Supima and anyone else that has a leash on him. The numbers don't add up for him to continue with it at the price point he sold them at given that he's so far under water. He's already in the red...that deal adds more red. A contract is just a piece of paper, once any concerns about appearing solvent and prosperous go away, outstanding contracts are just legal obligations that can be reneged on with only the threat of a lawsuit to worry about. If you're already broke...the holder of the contract has little reason to lawyer up and spend money to squeeze blood from a stone. Once you sink to a certain point, you become nearly immune to ethics and laws because your creditors and partners can't get a penny from an empty wallet even if they sue you to hell and back. File BK, have shitty credit for seven years and move on with your life. Strictly speaking, he's "contractually obligated" to deliver all the things we paid for but here we are and never mind the flat out theft of non refund cases on cancelled orders. I think the conversations here get really detail oriented and academic and people are forgetting that none of what is legal/illegal matters if the principal people in question don't care about ethics or laws and have no resources. I took a chance on the Supima 24ish oz jeans as well (and knew I was rolling the dice). I'd like to see them made but if it happens I'll buy y'all a round. Get a chargeback if you can and go buy some real pants on Rakuten. It's not going to happen guys. I doubt he'll file for bankruptcy after all he's done, and I'm confident he'll take care of the Supima orders. Our individual orders and us as individuals are small potatoes. Can't really do much to get things done. But Supima wields a lot more influence than we do. Even if Roman wants to flake on this arrangement, I'm pretty sure Supima won't allow him to, without going the bankruptcy route, and again, I don't think he'll go that route. The orders that have been made, custom or RTW, will probably again be placed on the back burner until the contract is fulfilled. And in this day and age, I'm surprised that people still pay with anything but a credit card. The level of protection, and the rewards/no interest financing for using credit cards, makes it almost a no brainer. I purchased a Brooks Brothers order by PayPal (I have no idea why I did that), and they wouldn't allow for returns in store because they can't credit back to PayPal in store. So I had to pay the shipping to get it back to BB, and I said never again. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 21:50:31 GMT -6
The other thing that happens in this day and age is people get divorced and their insane ex's run up their credit cards during the separation period and one is sometimes forced to live without the magic of Visa that we all seem to take for granted. This can take years to recover from. I learned all the same lessons you and everyone else learned in their 20's, but sometimes life's wonderful way of throwing us curve balls means we need to do things that are less than optimal even when we are well aware of the risks based on personal experience. I sense you're young, never been married and don't have much experience with this sort of mess. I hope you never go through a truly messy divorce and I wish I didn't have the experience in this area either. I was also once young, upwardly mobile and very well compensated with all the boxes checked along the way. I also had the certainty of youth to guide me confidently through life. Eventually that BS clears and you see how things really work I'm still well compensated, but I know the world isn't the way I was taught, the world is the way it is, chaotic. Sometimes you have to walk paths you know aren't the best. All I'm saying is, don't assume people who have do make a choice that is different than the one you made did it out of stupidity or a lack of common sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 22:25:41 GMT -6
It's been obvious for a long time that it was costing more to produce than he sold the items for, he's been bleeding money for months now.
The supima wonder jeans are never gonna happen, partners or not. I'd be surprised if they got more than a few hundred pre orders. If they ever get the looms producing quality material they'll sell it in bulk. It's all like smoke in a pipe.
My bet would be that LD ends and the LA shop continues on as a job shop under a new name.
At this point if you don't get your product or money back there will be little recourse available.
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Post by marauder on Jul 13, 2015 22:29:58 GMT -6
Very well put @stevekas.
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Post by Dirty_Denim on Jul 14, 2015 0:20:51 GMT -6
Some dope on styleforum who I am sure is stalking this thread made mention of the word guilt for my recent offer to help with orders . I want to get something straight about me keeping stuff to myself. FOr what I was making and what I was doing LD was not worth it to me. I could do what I was doing with my eyes closed because i enjoyed it but not for him. I have personal reasons why I left and many other things based on his character. I could have said them out in the open but I knew they would come out on their own. In fact u guys on many occasions during ur conspiracy theory convo's have said exactly true things. Many times i even liked ur comments and beliefs to tell u you were right. I chose not to say everything because I had personal reasons that could have clouded my own eyes so I said let me cool down before i make judgement or say anything. The Supima thing I thought bullshit because i knew how far he was from that but then again I wasnt there when he launched that so my thoughts were not fact but more me adding things up based on what I knew before i left. When I left I saw how tight everything was so I knew employees would leave or not get paid and they would bring out the truth. If i had said it by myself I thought people would think I was being bitter so I said ill chill but toss a few things out along the line to hint which I did. Some of u have an idea of what happened as I have told u bits and pieces but know this, a few of the major issues at LD is flat out incompetence, ego and the need to launch something b4 u know it to be possible which can be incompetence or dick baggery. I was lied to so many times which got me to say things that were not true like pricing. Once I figured stuff out I began to dig and look into things some more and thats when I began to check out.
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