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Post by gaseousclay on Apr 13, 2015 8:44:09 GMT -6
www.rawrdenim.com/2015/04/defense-cone-mills-hems-haws/Anyone read this article from Rawr Denim? It makes some interesting points about the history of Cone Mills denim and its availability in the denim community. However, as some of the commenters point out, what makes Cone Mills denim boring is the fact that it's so common, especially with new denim start ups. My thought is, if you're not marketing and selling jeans on fabrics that are unique, don't try and charge $150-200 for jeans that are average at best. I find it insulting when I see a new company release a pair of Cone Mills red line selvedge jeans that are no different from the handful of other companies selling the same thing. There might be a few companies out there that sell Cone Mills denim at a fair price (like Brave Star Selvage Co) but there are others that charge way more. I think this is why Gustin has done well with their denim - it's because they're pretty good at sourcing unique fabrics that separate themselves from everybody else. Same goes for other established companies like Rogue Territory, N&F, 3sixteen, etc. This is the common link shared by all of these companies, namely, that they use interesting fabrics. What do you guys think? Do you love Cone Mills denim or do you think it's overhyped?
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Post by DigDug on Apr 13, 2015 8:57:46 GMT -6
Haven't read the artical yet.
My problem with Cone Mills is you don't know what your getting.
Suppliers tout Cone Mills used in their jeans..... Ok.... Is that it, any more discription? red line... And...... What else ?
How about some more discription ... Slub, Cross Hatch,Nep, smooth (Buttery), even hand , etc . How's the Indigo? Deep, weft popping through, dark, bright, etc
How will it fade?
Or is it just another pair of Levis looking Denim?
Saying "Cone Mills" isn't enough anymore.
At least Gustin gave us the Cone Mills Lunch Tray Denim (did anyone get sold on those?)
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Post by quick on Apr 13, 2015 9:13:38 GMT -6
Cone is great if you're coming from non-selvedge denim.
It's true that Cone is boring after developing some more refined tastes.
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Post by DigDug on Apr 13, 2015 9:36:10 GMT -6
Read the Artical.
I get that Cone's product is true to its roots in providing the standard (even the remaining standard bearer) Denim.
But there has to be differences in their own products... What are they?
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Post by gaseousclay on Apr 13, 2015 10:40:39 GMT -6
Read the Artical. I get that Cone's product is true to its roots in providing the standard (even the remaining standard bearer) Denim. But there has to be differences in their own products... What are they? i'd like to know the differences as well. Am I correct in assuming they only produce indigo colored denim? I would find it hard to believe that they can't come up with new, unique colors that have an interesting warp/weft. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 10:50:27 GMT -6
Haven't read the artical yet. My problem with Cone Mills is you don't know what your getting. Suppliers tout Cone Mills used in their jeans..... Ok.... Is that it, any more discription? red line... And...... What else ? How about some more discription ... Slub, Cross Hatch,Nep, smooth (Buttery), even hand , etc . How's the Indigo? Deep, weft popping through, dark, bright, etc How will it fade? Or is it just another pair of Levis looking Denim? Saying "Cone Mills" isn't enough anymore. At least Gustin gave us the Cone Mills Lunch Tray Denim (did anyone get sold on those?) But isn't this isn't the by-product of cone mills denim...rather poor product description by the vendor. We see the same things even with Japanese denim and vendors that provide no description. I'll pick on LD here for a moment...customers would be hard pressed to know the characteristics of several of their fabrics...cone or otherwise. LD isn't alone in that, just an example we're all familiar with. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 10:51:47 GMT -6
Read the Artical. I get that Cone's product is true to its roots in providing the standard (even the remaining standard bearer) Denim. But there has to be differences in their own products... What are they? i'd like to know the differences as well. Am I correct in assuming they only produce indigo colored denim? I would find it hard to believe that they can't come up with new, unique colors that have an interesting warp/weft. Not familiar with all of their denim, but know they at least produce natural and black denim as well as indigo. |
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Post by exophobe on Apr 13, 2015 10:54:39 GMT -6
i'd like to know the differences as well. Am I correct in assuming they only produce indigo colored denim? I would find it hard to believe that they can't come up with new, unique colors that have an interesting warp/weft. They have the natural denim, and have been messing with some overdyes of that fabric (and others) -- for example the olive colored denim that Lawless has and Flint and Tinder just did a couple runs of. I don't know that they do any yarn-dyed selvedge -- if they do I haven't seen it anywhere as of yet. |
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Post by DigDug on Apr 13, 2015 10:57:53 GMT -6
Haven't read the artical yet. My problem with Cone Mills is you don't know what your getting. Suppliers tout Cone Mills used in their jeans..... Ok.... Is that it, any more discription? red line... And...... What else ? How about some more discription ... Slub, Cross Hatch,Nep, smooth (Buttery), even hand , etc . How's the Indigo? Deep, weft popping through, dark, bright, etc How will it fade? Or is it just another pair of Levis looking Denim? Saying "Cone Mills" isn't enough anymore. At least Gustin gave us the Cone Mills Lunch Tray Denim (did anyone get sold on those?) But isn't this isn't the by-product of cone mills denim...rather poor product description by the vendor. We see the same things even with Japanese denim and vendors that provide no description. I'll pick on LD here for a moment...customers would be hard pressed to know the characteristics of several of their fabrics...cone or otherwise. LD isn't alone in that, just an example we're all familiar with. Yes I'd say its the vendors who need to step it up. Think they were so use to just saying Cone and it sold. Different denim world now. You have to tell us its "Buttery" now. |
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Post by exophobe on Apr 13, 2015 11:01:12 GMT -6
Japanese Toyoda looms in the late 70s/early 80s could produce fabric as clean and even as modern Cone, but instead they romantically “built-in” the imperfections of those early jeans to produce a more exact copy of the early Levi’s, Wrangler, and Lee jeans. Japanese denim mills began to exaggerate those imperfections until we have denim now that’s practically all slub, so neppy you could mistake it for tweed, and so heavy that it’s basically a piece of carpet.
The interetsing thing about this is that all these exaggerations are the "art" of the fabric that people go on and on about PBJ and Oni for. The consistency of Cone is what makes it desirable for manufacturers, and less desirable for consumers as they get into their third or fourth pair of indigo denim and realize they're bored of perfect and more interested in the unique.
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Post by gaseousclay on Apr 13, 2015 11:16:00 GMT -6
Japanese Toyoda looms in the late 70s/early 80s could produce fabric as clean and even as modern Cone, but instead they romantically “built-in” the imperfections of those early jeans to produce a more exact copy of the early Levi’s, Wrangler, and Lee jeans. Japanese denim mills began to exaggerate those imperfections until we have denim now that’s practically all slub, so neppy you could mistake it for tweed, and so heavy that it’s basically a piece of carpet.The interetsing thing about this is that all these exaggerations are the "art" of the fabric that people go on and on about PBJ and Oni for. The consistency of Cone is what makes it desirable for manufacturers, and less desirable for consumers as they get into their third or fourth pair of indigo denim and realize they're bored of perfect and more interested in the unique. yep, this was kind of my point. Denim consumers, especially those of us that like selvedge and raw denim, want something different that doesn't look like your garden variety cookie-cutter denim template used by so many other companies. I think some companies (and vendors) mistakenly believe that if they advertise something as being made with Cone Mills denim it'll sell itself. To that I say BS. |
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Post by Old26 on Apr 13, 2015 11:25:38 GMT -6
Japanese Toyoda looms in the late 70s/early 80s could produce fabric as clean and even as modern Cone, but instead they romantically “built-in” the imperfections of those early jeans to produce a more exact copy of the early Levi’s, Wrangler, and Lee jeans. Japanese denim mills began to exaggerate those imperfections until we have denim now that’s practically all slub, so neppy you could mistake it for tweed, and so heavy that it’s basically a piece of carpet.The interetsing thing about this is that all these exaggerations are the "art" of the fabric that people go on and on about PBJ and Oni for. The consistency of Cone is what makes it desirable for manufacturers, and less desirable for consumers as they get into their third or fourth pair of indigo denim and realize they're bored of perfect and more interested in the unique. Which is why I want/like/buy lots of other items that are not assembly-line made. I like my jackets that look like a human made them, not a machine. I like denim that has character in it. I like wallets and key fobs and all sorts of things made by craftsmen/women that know what they're doing and do it by hand. Give me imperfect all day. Just better fit! |
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Post by ickes on Apr 13, 2015 12:24:25 GMT -6
I personally really like Cone denim and I don't think it gets the respect it deserves at times among the denim head community. This article was great and did a great job of explaining why Cone denim has it's place and why it is great. I work in jeans every day now (used to wear Dickies in the past, sometimes still do) and the Heavy Americans by Gustin are an amazing pair of work jeans, my favorite so far. This article is exactly right, anything over 17 oz would be too much for a pair of work jeans and the HA's are right at the sweet spot IMO. 14-16.5 oz is a good range for work wear. Cone denim makes for some great work wear but at the same time also looks great for casual wear. It may appear basic.... but at the same time among the denim community today with all of the slubs, neps, crazy colored wefts, silk blends, etc out there (which are great, don't get me wrong, the Cone denim has almost become more unique in a way. It's the same logic as tattoos in today's world. It's almost to the point where a person who has a clean slate of skin without a single tattoo stands out more and is more unique than people with tattoos because everyone has at least one these days it seems. Idk, that's like....just my opinion man..  |
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Post by metals37 on Apr 13, 2015 13:38:12 GMT -6
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Post by gaseousclay on Apr 13, 2015 13:40:23 GMT -6
I personally really like Cone denim and I don't think it gets the respect it deserves at times among the denim head community. This article was great and did a great job of explaining why Cone denim has it's place and why it is great. I work in jeans every day now (used to wear Dickies in the past, sometimes still do) and the Heavy Americans by Gustin are an amazing pair of work jeans, my favorite so far. This article is exactly right, anything over 17 oz would be too much for a pair of work jeans and the HA's are right at the sweet spot IMO. 14-16.5 oz is a good range for work wear. Cone denim makes for some great work wear but at the same time also looks great for casual wear. It may appear basic.... but at the same time among the denim community today with all of the slubs, neps, crazy colored wefts, silk blends, etc out there (which are great, don't get me wrong, the Cone denim has almost become more unique in a way. It's the same logic as tattoos in today's world. It's almost to the point where a person who has a clean slate of skin without a single tattoo stands out more and is more unique than people with tattoos because everyone has at least one these days it seems. Idk, that's like....just my opinion man.. I don't think anyone is arguing about the quality of Cone Mills denim, but merely pointing out that it's such a common fabric. Sometimes I chuckle at the way vendors and denim companies try to pitch Cone Mills denim, as if it's some mystical unicorn rarely seen by human eyes. I'm not against Cone Mills denim, i'm just not paying $150-200 for jeans made with Cone Mills denim when I can get a far more interesting pair of jeans that uses a more unique fabric. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 13:46:58 GMT -6
I personally really like Cone denim and I don't think it gets the respect it deserves at times among the denim head community. This article was great and did a great job of explaining why Cone denim has it's place and why it is great. I work in jeans every day now (used to wear Dickies in the past, sometimes still do) and the Heavy Americans by Gustin are an amazing pair of work jeans, my favorite so far. This article is exactly right, anything over 17 oz would be too much for a pair of work jeans and the HA's are right at the sweet spot IMO. 14-16.5 oz is a good range for work wear. Cone denim makes for some great work wear but at the same time also looks great for casual wear. It may appear basic.... but at the same time among the denim community today with all of the slubs, neps, crazy colored wefts, silk blends, etc out there (which are great, don't get me wrong, the Cone denim has almost become more unique in a way. It's the same logic as tattoos in today's world. It's almost to the point where a person who has a clean slate of skin without a single tattoo stands out more and is more unique than people with tattoos because everyone has at least one these days it seems. Idk, that's like....just my opinion man.. I don't think anyone is arguing about the quality of Cone Mills denim, but merely pointing out that it's such a common fabric. Sometimes I chuckle at the way vendors and denim companies try to pitch Cone Mills denim, as if it's some mystical unicorn rarely seen by human eyes. I'm not against Cone Mills denim, i'm just not paying $150-200 for jeans made with Cone Mills denim when I can get a far more interesting pair of jeans that uses a more unique fabric. People pay that much for Cone Mills denim? Aren't the Gustin produced Cone Mills denim always like sub-$100? |
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Post by exophobe on Apr 13, 2015 13:55:26 GMT -6
People pay that much for Cone Mills denim? Aren't the Gustin produced Cone Mills denim always like sub-$100? Tellason? Taylor Stitch? Other brands I'm forgetting? |
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Post by gaseousclay on Apr 13, 2015 13:56:07 GMT -6
People pay that much for Cone Mills denim? Aren't the Gustin produced Cone Mills denim always like sub-$100? of course people pay that much for Cone Mills denim. Tellason, Raleigh Denim and Left Field NYC all use Cone Mills denim in their line of jeans, and they're all ridiculously expensive. Bravestar Selvage uses it too, but their jeans are only $89. It wouldn't surprise me if Gustin's Cone Mills stuff sells for under $100. |
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Post by bentin on Apr 13, 2015 13:59:33 GMT -6
Rogue Territory and Railcar both use Cone and charge plenty for it, but then their construction and delivery model are a wee bit better than G's. I'd usually opt for a Japanese denim, but do like the all American aspect of using Cone with an American company.
I have a pair of Asbury Park Cones, blue line, that are my softest and best cut jeans and have great fades. I'll probably always have at least one form of Cone denim around.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 14:08:06 GMT -6
TS charges $98 for their Cone Mills denim. I haven't found Cone Mills denim to be unique or attractive enough to pay double the G/TS price, even if there is no waiting for them.
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Post by gaseousclay on Apr 13, 2015 14:09:58 GMT -6
Rogue Territory and Railcar both use Cone and charge plenty for it, but then their construction and delivery model are a wee bit better than G's. I'd usually opt for a Japanese denim, but do like the all American aspect of using Cone with an American company. I have a pair of Asbury Park Cones, blue line, that are my softest and best cut jeans and have great fades. I'll probably always have at least one form of Cone denim around. edit: just noticed RT only has the 'tinted weft' Cone Mills denim in their entire line up. the rest of their denim comes from Nihon Menpu or Kaihara. |
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Post by bentin on Apr 13, 2015 14:13:47 GMT -6
TS charges $98 for their Cone Mills denim. I haven't found Cone Mills denim to be unique or attractive enough to pay double the G/TS price, even if there is no waiting for them. Isn't the $98 TS Cone non selvage? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 14:17:26 GMT -6
TS charges $98 for their Cone Mills denim. I haven't found Cone Mills denim to be unique or attractive enough to pay double the G/TS price, even if there is no waiting for them. Isn't the $98 TS Cone non selvage? The Naturals are selvedge. Not sure about the other one. |
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Post by bentin on Apr 13, 2015 14:35:02 GMT -6
Isn't the $98 TS Cone non selvage? The Naturals are selvedge. Not sure about the other one. But then you'd have a pair of white jeans. The indigo ones are non selvage/selvedge/fancy pants. |
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Post by ickes on Apr 13, 2015 14:37:00 GMT -6
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