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Oni Denim
Jul 24, 2015 19:04:51 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by bentin on Jul 24, 2015 19:04:51 GMT -6
Here's the thing. I won't buy from the guys, but someone walking in off the streets of Brooklyn isn't likely to be comparing prices to Rakuten or Gustin. It's not like they probably sell 90% of their inventory as web sales. Plus these guys have inventory in many items that you just can't find elsewhere. Like it or not, pay their prices or not, but they're not going to fail just because a few of us get annoyed by their prices.
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Post by gsg on Jul 24, 2015 19:06:21 GMT -6
I hate BiG's website. they really need to up their photo resolution and quantity. ... and lower their damn prices. |
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Post by gsg on Jul 24, 2015 19:13:56 GMT -6
Here's the thing. I won't buy from the guys, but someone walking in off the streets of Brooklyn isn't likely to be comparing prices to Rakuten or Gustin. It's not like they probably sell 90% of their inventory as web sales. Plus these guys have inventory in many items that you just can't find elsewhere. Like it or not, pay their prices or not, but they're not going to fail just because a few of us get annoyed by their prices. I hear you.
Maybe I am not their target customer either. Perhaps they cater to well-off New-Yorkers looking for instant gratification. Buy and walk out the store wearing your item, that's their niche. Rakuten can't offer that, there is shipping involved (although darn quick) and you can't handle the product on-sight... etc.
Either way, all I can do is speak with my dollars, and they are not getting them.
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Oni Denim
Jul 24, 2015 19:43:45 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ickes on Jul 24, 2015 19:43:45 GMT -6
Here's the thing. I won't buy from the guys, but someone walking in off the streets of Brooklyn isn't likely to be comparing prices to Rakuten or Gustin. It's not like they probably sell 90% of their inventory as web sales. Plus these guys have inventory in many items that you just can't find elsewhere. Like it or not, pay their prices or not, but they're not going to fail just because a few of us get annoyed by their prices. I hear you.
Maybe I am not their target customer either. Perhaps they cater to well-off New-Yorkers looking for instant gratification. Buy and walk out the store wearing your item, that's their niche. Rakuten can't offer that, there is shipping involved (although darn quick) and you can't handle the product on-sight... etc.
Either way, all I can do is speak with my dollars, and they are not getting them.
One thing you are forgetting is that not every product is available in Japan (Rakuten). When Iron Heart releases a product it is not always released in Japan and therefore is only avzilable through IHUK, SelfEdge, or a few other vendors. For that reason, if IH releases a product that I really want I will pay their marked up price. Of course I'm going to choose Rakuten if it's available, but a lot of the times it's not. |
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Post by exophobe on Jul 24, 2015 19:55:25 GMT -6
Here's the thing. I won't buy from the guys, but someone walking in off the streets of Brooklyn isn't likely to be comparing prices to Rakuten or Gustin. It's not like they probably sell 90% of their inventory as web sales. Plus these guys have inventory in many items that you just can't find elsewhere. Like it or not, pay their prices or not, but they're not going to fail just because a few of us get annoyed by their prices. The other part that's not being talked about is that the yen isn't always down compared to the dollar, so it is a variable. Blue in green, self edge, and IHUK do product development, as well, which is an additional backend cost, and they have to meet minimum order quantities for these, all of which increases their overhead. The more I learn about it, the less annoyed I am at them, since they likely have to balance these costs across all their stock. Now, not allowing returns or in house chain stitch hemming, that complicates things, as when you're pricing at the top of the market, you have to sell it with your service. I will buy locally for higher prices if the service is there to back it up due to the positive benefits of local business. If they're random guys out on the Internet to me, I expect a little more I guess. Also, I think many of us fall into the worn-collectible market. If I were running one serious pair of denim per year, and have the hemming sorted for me at no additional cost, I'd look at this differently. If you're getting an exclusive for that works for you, and they include all the trimmings, plus you know you can easily communicate with them, it becomes much more valuable. Companies like blue owl seem to understand this, which is why they don't come up in these rants, in my opinion. |
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Oni Denim
Jul 24, 2015 19:56:31 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by exophobe on Jul 24, 2015 19:56:31 GMT -6
ickes - although I think that actually causes more frustration if you start trying to account for their markup.
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Post by bentin on Jul 24, 2015 20:04:28 GMT -6
There is a lot to be said for being able to try things on. I ended up being between sizes in RgT and tried a few pairs on in each size and took the best fit. Sure beats waiting twelve weeks and getting somthing sewn out of spec.
Blue Owl, to me, does the perfect job of pricing competitively, offering collaborations and having awesome customer service. If BiG and Self Edge came closer to their model, rather than the F U, we're awesome model, I'd like them a lot more.
Context certianly has low overhead and has fair prices with some cool collabs too.
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Oni Denim
Jul 24, 2015 20:23:04 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ickes on Jul 24, 2015 20:23:04 GMT -6
ickes - although I think that actually causes more frustration if you start trying to account for their markup. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. |
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Post by exophobe on Jul 24, 2015 20:37:54 GMT -6
ickes - although I think that actually causes more frustration if you start trying to account for their markup. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. A product being available exclusively from one retailer who appears to be at a roughly 200-250 percent markup makes it more frustrating for the consumer, especially if the value-add is limited. |
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Post by devastitis on Jul 24, 2015 21:38:05 GMT -6
Market talks. If these inflated mark-ups are only justified by their presence in "stupidly expensive places" then, they will have to relocate if customers are not willing to support it. I believe Western retailers are already feeling the pressure from cheaper product availability direct from Japan. I do not think it is sustainable business practice for US retailers in the long-run to build barriers that avoid us accessing these brands direct from Japan, like exclusivity agreements, etc. Brands with free-market access will flourish (i.e. whatever is available through Okayama, Denimio, etc.). Western retailers will need to adapt to survive, we are already seeing some of their prices come lower. Not enough though in my opinion. For example, today you can buy Strike Golds SG2109 in rakuten for $230 shipped to your door. Same pant was selling last December for $390 at our beloved US retailer. Really...? Since, the US retailer has lower the price down to ~$330, not enough though… specially when their after sales service sucks and does not even offer refunds. Why would I want to pay $100 more for the same product? Just my rant. Yes, I have bought from western retailers before, when I knew know better... Nowdays, and in part thanks to this forum, I am sorry to say all my purchases have gone straight to Japan. Why? Because of the crazy mark-ups here in the US. Stop the fleecing, offer good value and I will come back as a customer to the US. Just curious as to what you think would be a fair price and good value for an item from a B&M in the US compared to an item off of Rakuten? $100 more sounds about right to me. |
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Post by quick on Jul 24, 2015 22:00:06 GMT -6
Imo 20 dollars more seems fair for the convenience of trying stuff on in store.
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Post by ickes on Jul 24, 2015 23:03:42 GMT -6
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. A product being available exclusively from one retailer who appears to be at a roughly 200-250 percent markup makes it more frustrating for the consumer, especially if the value-add is limited. I can understand your point but for me its not frustrating. I mean, what the hell can I or anyone else do about it? Nothing. So it's completely out of my control and I dont bother wasting any of my time or energy stressing about something that's out of my control. I'm not going to say this to boast and actually by saying this some may call me foolish, but I have spent 300+ dollars on a single shirt/jeans and I feel 100% confident and have no regrets about those purchases. With other more "affordable" companies I have spent 85 dollars on a single shirt/jeans and have completely regretted it for multiple reasons, poor quality craftsmanship being one of them. “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”. This quote could not ring any truer when discussing this topic. I've tried the route of buying from the more affordable, crowdsourced, made to order companies and it's just not worth the gamble to me anymore. Sure, you can beat the house sometimes and end up with a decent product at a good price but it's a game of roulette and it seems far too often that one of us looses. The quality control issues are documented on this here forum on a daily basis. To me, throwing your money at that game of roulette is what's foolish. It took me a while to learn this and I have no regrets of going through that learning curve. The more affordable companies have their place and are a great gateway into the selvedge denim world and higher end fashion altogether. That's exactly what it was for me. I'm now spending more money on a single item than I ever thought I would but I know EXACTLY what I'm going to get and that it will be 100% quality. Some may not like the style or designs of some of the Iron Hearts or The Strike Golds of the world, but I don't think anyone's ever looked at one of those products and said "man, what a poorly made, low quality piece of shit". We can debate these SelfEdge and IHUK prices all day long. Of course they're marked up...so what? I'm not getting mad about it, these people need to make money and at the end of the day you know what you're going to get. That confidence and piece of mind holds a lot of value for me. Like I said earlier, giving my hard earned money to the marked up prices of IHUK and SE, etc.. is a much wiser purchase than throwing my money at a company who doesn't have a track record of consistently delivering well made, high quality products. |
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Post by devastitis on Jul 24, 2015 23:09:30 GMT -6
A product being available exclusively from one retailer who appears to be at a roughly 200-250 percent markup makes it more frustrating for the consumer, especially if the value-add is limited. I can understand your point but for me its not frustrating. I mean, what the hell can I or anyone else do about it? Nothing. So it's completely out of my control and I dont bother wasting any of my time or energy stressing about something that's out of my control. I'm not going to say this to boast and actually by saying this some may call me foolish, but I have spent 300+ dollars on a single shirt/jeans and I feel 100% confident and have no regrets about those purchases. With other more "affordable" companies I have spent 85 dollars on a single shirt/jeans and have completely regretted it for multiple reasons, poor quality craftsmanship being one of them. “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten”. This quote could not ring any truer when discussing this topic. I've tried the route of buying from the more affordable, crowdsourced, made to order companies and it's just not worth the gamble to me anymore. Sure, you can beat the house sometimes and end up with a decent product at a good price but it's a game of roulette and it seems far too often that one of us looses. The quality control issues are documented on this here forum on a daily basis. To me, throwing your money at that game of roulette is what's foolish. It took me a while to learn this and I have no regrets of going through that learning curve. The more affordable companies have their place and are a great gateway into the selvedge denim world and higher end fashion altogether. That's exactly what it was for me. I'm now spending more money on a single item than I ever thought I would but I know EXACTLY what I'm going to get and that it will be 100% quality. Some may not like the style or designs of some of the Iron Hearts or The Strike Golds of the world, but I don't think anyone's ever looked at one of those products and said "man, what a poorly made, low quality piece of shit". We can debate these SelfEdge and IHUK prices all day long. Of course they're marked up...so what? I'm not getting mad about it, these people need to make money and at the end of the day you know what you're going to get. That confidence and piece of mind holds a lot of value for me. Like I said earlier, giving my hard earned money to the marked up prices of IHUK and SE, etc.. is a much wiser purchase than throwing my money at a company who doesn't have a track record of consistently delivering well made, high quality products. “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” - MattIckes ickes, you can't be making up quotes to prove your own point  |
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Post by ickes on Jul 24, 2015 23:15:38 GMT -6
Oh yeah devastitis??? Well take this!; “Good equipment ain’t cheap, and cheap equipment ain’t good.” And this!!; “The most expensive suit is the one you only wear once.” And one more!!; “Pay lots, cry once. Pay little, cry twice.” |
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Post by ickes on Jul 24, 2015 23:17:58 GMT -6
But seriously, I really like this one too;
“It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money … that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought to do.
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Oni Denim
Jul 25, 2015 0:34:54 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by exophobe on Jul 25, 2015 0:34:54 GMT -6
But seriously, I really like this one too; “It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money … that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought to do. While I don't want to bring up this being interspersed with the TSG quick-wear thread, this might be getting a bit hyperbolic, knowing where you're coming from. Gustin is not poor quality -- they're also not top of the line, and aren't priced that way. They're miles above current Mexican Levi's (just used for its commonality), and those are pretty rugged for their cost, I've never been worried about any of them falling apart. There is better, and you will pay for it, but we're not talking about the K-mart knockoff store brand, here. There are uniqlo that people buy for $40, and they suffer the same issues under heavy wear that more expensive brands experience, no more, no less. The difference is in the details -- knowing the mill, seeing the guys that got it made in online forums, talking to them about their craft, the materials of the hardware, the subtleties of a great fit and not just a good one. I'm not arguing against the value of the guys doing great stuff, and I truly think they are, and from what I've seen they tend to be worth their asking price. This doesn't mean that everything at a lower price point is garbage, though. |
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Oni Denim
Jul 25, 2015 3:14:09 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ickes on Jul 25, 2015 3:14:09 GMT -6
But seriously, I really like this one too; “It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money … that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought to do. While I don't want to bring up this being interspersed with the TSG quick-wear thread, this might be getting a bit hyperbolic, knowing where you're coming from. Gustin is not poor quality -- they're also not top of the line, and aren't priced that way. They're miles above current Mexican Levi's (just used for its commonality), and those are pretty rugged for their cost, I've never been worried about any of them falling apart. There is better, and you will pay for it, but we're not talking about the K-mart knockoff store brand, here. There are uniqlo that people buy for $40, and they suffer the same issues under heavy wear that more expensive brands experience, no more, no less. The difference is in the details -- knowing the mill, seeing the guys that got it made in online forums, talking to them about their craft, the materials of the hardware, the subtleties of a great fit and not just a good one. I'm not arguing against the value of the guys doing great stuff, and I truly think they are, and from what I've seen they tend to be worth their asking price. This doesn't mean that everything at a lower price point is garbage, though. I didn't mean to imply that everything at a lower price point is garbage, but more so that the crowd funding model Gustin uses does not allow consistency in terms of quality. |
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Post by brentkuz on Jul 25, 2015 5:00:28 GMT -6
I hear you.
Maybe I am not their target customer either. Perhaps they cater to well-off New-Yorkers looking for instant gratification. Buy and walk out the store wearing your item, that's their niche. Rakuten can't offer that, there is shipping involved (although darn quick) and you can't handle the product on-sight... etc.
Either way, all I can do is speak with my dollars, and they are not getting them.
One thing you are forgetting is that not every product is available in Japan (Rakuten). When Iron Heart releases a product it is not always released in Japan and therefore is only avzilable through IHUK, SelfEdge, or a few other vendors. For that reason, if IH releases a product that I really want I will pay their marked up price. Of course I'm going to choose Rakuten if it's available, but a lot of the times it's not. But with the 633 you could buy a pair of 634's off rakuten and taper the lower leg for less than buying from one of the stores. |
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Oni Denim
Jul 25, 2015 10:37:56 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ickes on Jul 25, 2015 10:37:56 GMT -6
One thing you are forgetting is that not every product is available in Japan (Rakuten). When Iron Heart releases a product it is not always released in Japan and therefore is only avzilable through IHUK, SelfEdge, or a few other vendors. For that reason, if IH releases a product that I really want I will pay their marked up price. Of course I'm going to choose Rakuten if it's available, but a lot of the times it's not. But with the 633 you could buy a pair of 634's off rakuten and taper the lower leg for less than buying from one of the stores. But can you though?? By the time you factor in shipping costs and the costs to do the alteration? I don't know...I'm not sure what the cost is to tapering the lower leg. |
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Post by seth on Jul 25, 2015 11:25:47 GMT -6
But with the 633 you could buy a pair of 634's off rakuten and taper the lower leg for less than buying from one of the stores. But can you though?? By the time you factor in shipping costs and the costs to do the alteration? I don't know...I'm not sure what the cost is to tapering the lower leg. Yes, you can. IH-634S is at $209 with free shipping from Vari. Rail car tapering and hemming is $60 + about $12 to ship to RC. (Return shipping is included in the $60.) That's about $281 total to have 634S custom tapered and hemmed to whatever you want. A new pair of 633S are $325 plus hemming. Let's call it $340. That's a $59 difference. |
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Oni Denim
Jul 25, 2015 11:49:44 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ickes on Jul 25, 2015 11:49:44 GMT -6
But can you though?? By the time you factor in shipping costs and the costs to do the alteration? I don't know...I'm not sure what the cost is to tapering the lower leg. Yes, you can. IH-634S is at $209 with free shipping from Vari. Rail car tapering and hemming is $60 + about $12 to ship to RC. (Return shipping is included in the $60.) That's about $281 total to have 634S custom tapered and hemmed to whatever you want. A new pair of 633S are $325 plus hemming. Let's call it $340. That's a $59 difference. Ok, well in my case there would be no hemming needed so now Im at a 45 dollar difference plus a potential to get hit by customs if I order from Japan. Also if Vari doesn't have my size I'd have to do another shop on Rakuten an pay shipping. Just playing devils advocate here but it gets to the point of not being a huge savings. |
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Post by bentin on Jul 25, 2015 12:31:37 GMT -6
There is the invaluable 'I didn't give my money to dicks' factor.
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Post by scooter on Jul 25, 2015 12:57:27 GMT -6
There is the invaluable 'I didn't give my money to dicks' factor. This ! I can't help but sense an air of snobbery surrounding the likes of the SEs and BiGs of the world. Reading comments by one in particular keeps me from ever giving his business my business. |
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Post by brentkuz on Jul 25, 2015 13:12:15 GMT -6
Hey run your business anyway you want. They are obviously very good and doing just fine. I won't be buying anything else from SE and I haven't bought anything from IHUK.
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Post by ickes on Jul 25, 2015 14:58:40 GMT -6
There is the invaluable 'I didn't give my money to dicks' factor. I have gotten that vibe from SE. From IHUK?? No way |
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