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Post by gaseousclay on May 10, 2017 9:08:11 GMT -6
TS Reps response cut and pasted from SF. - NC Hey All, @th3buhbuh feel free to DM with any of the issues you've discussed with Mike. Regarding China: We set out to make the best jacket we could. This is the same reason we took our suiting and dress shirts to Portugal, and our Chino's to Spain. Simply put, the manufacturing in those respective areas is, in our opinion, superior to stateside manufacturing. Yes, Made in China carries a stigma, but like many things in life there are two sides to the story. There is certainly bad manufacturing in China, but thankfully we are not forced to work with them. The factories that we have looked at have built full closed loop systems where they purify and recycle their own water, they feed all their workers (sometimes provide clothing and housing as well) and all adhere to fair labor standards. We utilize extensive compliance audits (usually paid for by much larger brands like Patagonia) to make sure of these things. If anyone has any follow up or would like to discuss in detail feel free to DM me and we can chat as much as you'd like. if you were to apply this explanation to a US company you'd probably ask what the hell is going on? they feed, clothe and house all their workers? Is this because they're not making enough to do these things themselves? sounds dubious to me. |
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Post by davelewis on May 10, 2017 9:44:24 GMT -6
TS Reps response cut and pasted from SF. - NC Hey All, @th3buhbuh feel free to DM with any of the issues you've discussed with Mike. Regarding China: We set out to make the best jacket we could. This is the same reason we took our suiting and dress shirts to Portugal, and our Chino's to Spain. Simply put, the manufacturing in those respective areas is, in our opinion, superior to stateside manufacturing. Yes, Made in China carries a stigma, but like many things in life there are two sides to the story. There is certainly bad manufacturing in China, but thankfully we are not forced to work with them. The factories that we have looked at have built full closed loop systems where they purify and recycle their own water, they feed all their workers (sometimes provide clothing and housing as well) and all adhere to fair labor standards. We utilize extensive compliance audits (usually paid for by much larger brands like Patagonia) to make sure of these things. If anyone has any follow up or would like to discuss in detail feel free to DM me and we can chat as much as you'd like. if you were to apply this explanation to a US company you'd probably ask what the hell is going on? they feed, clothe and house all their workers? Is this because they're not making enough to do these things themselves? sounds dubious to me. And as an incentive, the top producers have a window in their bungalow. |
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New Drops
May 10, 2017 10:02:01 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by bentin on May 10, 2017 10:02:01 GMT -6
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New Drops
May 10, 2017 14:29:34 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by bentin on May 10, 2017 14:29:34 GMT -6
Had a chance to try on Alex Mill's MiUSA oxford today. Very similar fit to TS Jacks, with less tiny fish. Now they just need to expand their materials.
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Post by kkozel on May 11, 2017 7:28:18 GMT -6
I actually emailed the founders distro about this, they were pretty honest about their response (very similar to what northcoast put up) I can't say I agree with it, but its what they stance it. My point with them, at least the one I tried to convey, is similar to what someone said on styleforum - its their company and how they operate is their decision, just like how consumers choose to support them. But for me, always appreciated the transparency TS provided...not saying this is a bait and switch, but just feels like they are holding the China story back. They said they plan on talking about the china factory more, no idea when thats happening. |
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Post by gaseousclay on May 11, 2017 7:54:30 GMT -6
I actually emailed the founders distro about this, they were pretty honest about their response (very similar to what northcoast put up) I can't say I agree with it, but its what they stance it. My point with them, at least the one I tried to convey, is similar to what someone said on styleforum - its their company and how they operate is their decision, just like how consumers choose to support them. But for me, always appreciated the transparency TS provided...not saying this is a bait and switch, but just feels like they are holding the China story back. They said they plan on talking about the china factory more, no idea when thats happening. that's great that they've chosen to be transparent about it but my opinion is that in doing so they've alienated a lot of customers. I know I sound like a broken record when I say this but to me it's almost like a betrayal. I know they've grown and there's a good likelihood that there simply aren't any US manufacturers that can keep up with demand, but imagine what it would sound like if a company like Rogue Territory, 3sixteen or any other US based company turned around and started making their stuff abroad. The backlash would be tremendous. I realize that US made doesn't always equate to quality but for many it's a source of pride knowing that your clothing was produced here. This is why a lot of us choose to pay more for our clothing versus buying cheaper alternatives. If I want an inexpensive shirt or whatever i'll go to J.Crew with their perpetual sales. The Chinese factory explanation sounds like a smokescreen to justify their decision. |
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New Drops
May 11, 2017 8:07:21 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by bentin on May 11, 2017 8:07:21 GMT -6
Yep, was excited about the upcoming MiUSA selvedge chambray Western, but may just be done with TS. They're honest, and that's cool. But their honesty means I'll look to the alternatives.
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Post by ncbluegrass on May 11, 2017 8:23:32 GMT -6
So TS... your latest drop was delayed and you make up for it by shipping it FedEx Ground with a 9 day delivery window? I guess we're at that point of cutting all the corners?
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Post by kkozel on May 11, 2017 8:38:17 GMT -6
I actually emailed the founders distro about this, they were pretty honest about their response (very similar to what northcoast put up) I can't say I agree with it, but its what they stance it. My point with them, at least the one I tried to convey, is similar to what someone said on styleforum - its their company and how they operate is their decision, just like how consumers choose to support them. But for me, always appreciated the transparency TS provided...not saying this is a bait and switch, but just feels like they are holding the China story back. They said they plan on talking about the china factory more, no idea when thats happening. that's great that they've chosen to be transparent about it but my opinion is that in doing so they've alienated a lot of customers. I know I sound like a broken record when I say this but to me it's almost like a betrayal. I know they've grown and there's a good likelihood that there simply aren't any US manufacturers that can keep up with demand, but imagine what it would sound like if a company like Rogue Territory, 3sixteen or any other US based company turned around and started making their stuff abroad. The backlash would be tremendous. I realize that US made doesn't always equate to quality but for many it's a source of pride knowing that your clothing was produced here. This is why a lot of us choose to pay more for our clothing versus buying cheaper alternatives. If I want an inexpensive shirt or whatever i'll go to J.Crew with their perpetual sales. The Chinese factory explanation sounds like a smokescreen to justify their decision. Not disagreeing here, just relaying their argument to me. Really came down to these points for them, which I don't know enough to know if its smokescreen or not. 1) Worker conditions in US aren't necessary great (which reminded me I did see this article - but didn't read - well-spent.com/factory-conditions-la-bad-abroad/)2) The chinese factory produces less waste than the US once doing the same thing. Had the patagonia cite too Agree that if 3Sixteen or Rogue Territory went to China there'd be some heavy backlash - but I do think the comparison isn't totally fair. TS produces much more volume, which I think allows them to go to other factories (totally guessing?) and at a much lower price point. Another thing I dont know - is will this be the trend for them, or is it a one time thing? All I do know, is I think they underestimated their customer's base opinion on the whole thing. In summary, who knows what their motivation really is, maybe its what they claim or maybe its what the assumption of Chinese manufacturing brings. I'm not arguing either stance, cause I just don't now...just being a messenger. *edited to hammer my biggest meh* I'm being too kind with the transparency thing - only cause I don't like the stance of "we'll talk about it when asked" wish they were pro-active. Hell I didn't even notice it til commented here. But can't deny respecting they replied to me |
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Post by kkozel on May 11, 2017 8:40:52 GMT -6
Yep, was excited about the upcoming MiUSA selvedge chambray Western, but may just be done with TS. They're honest, and that's cool. But their honesty means I'll look to the alternatives. I'm not sure I disagree with you, right now I'm saying I'll be a decision when they drop. It all still rubs me the wrong way, and not sure I really know how to explain it. |
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Post by gaseousclay on May 11, 2017 8:59:11 GMT -6
Not disagreeing here, just relaying their argument to me. Really came down to these points for them, which I don't know enough to know if its smokescreen or not. 1) Worker conditions in US aren't necessary great (which reminded me I did see this article - but didn't read - well-spent.com/factory-conditions-la-bad-abroad/)2) The chinese factory produces less waste than the US once doing the same thing. Had the patagonia cite too Agree that if 3Sixteen or Rogue Territory went to China there'd be some heavy backlash - but I do think the comparison isn't totally fair. TS produces much more volume, which I think allows them to go to other factories (totally guessing?) and at a much lower price point. Another thing I dont know - is will this be the trend for them, or is it a one time thing? All I do know, is I think they underestimated their customer's base opinion on the whole thing. In summary, who knows what their motivation really is, maybe its what they claim or maybe its what the assumption of Chinese manufacturing brings. I'm not arguing either stance, cause I just don't now...just being a messenger. my comment was just a response to TS's explanation, not at you. My question though, who performs the audit at the Chinese factory? Who does the factory in China employ? Poor workers from rural communities? Children? Beyond the meals, housing and clothing, what sort of wages do their workers make? These questions are important to me. To me it highlights whether or not a factory is exploiting their workers. We have OSHA & the Dept of Labor here in the US which provides protections for workers. I'm guessing that Chinese workers are not provided with these same protections. Yes, comparing TS to 3sixteen or RgT might not be totally fair. I was just using them as examples because they're US made and that this is part of the reason people support them. I just know that if any of the premium brands we follow and pay good money for turned around and shifted manufacturing overseas they'd lose customers fast, this includes made in Japan brands. |
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Post by kkozel on May 11, 2017 9:29:20 GMT -6
Not disagreeing here, just relaying their argument to me. Really came down to these points for them, which I don't know enough to know if its smokescreen or not. 1) Worker conditions in US aren't necessary great (which reminded me I did see this article - but didn't read - well-spent.com/factory-conditions-la-bad-abroad/)2) The chinese factory produces less waste than the US once doing the same thing. Had the patagonia cite too Agree that if 3Sixteen or Rogue Territory went to China there'd be some heavy backlash - but I do think the comparison isn't totally fair. TS produces much more volume, which I think allows them to go to other factories (totally guessing?) and at a much lower price point. Another thing I dont know - is will this be the trend for them, or is it a one time thing? All I do know, is I think they underestimated their customer's base opinion on the whole thing. In summary, who knows what their motivation really is, maybe its what they claim or maybe its what the assumption of Chinese manufacturing brings. I'm not arguing either stance, cause I just don't now...just being a messenger. my comment was just a response to TS's explanation, not at you. My question though, who performs the audit at the Chinese factory? Who does the factory in China employ? Poor workers from rural communities? Children? Beyond the meals, housing and clothing, what sort of wages do their workers make? These questions are important to me. To me it highlights whether or not a factory is exploiting their workers. We have OSHA & the Dept of Labor here in the US which provides protections for workers. I'm guessing that Chinese workers are not provided with these same protections. Yes, comparing TS to 3sixteen or RgT might not be totally fair. I was just using them as examples because they're US made and that this is part of the reason people support them. I just know that if any of the premium brands we follow and pay good money for turned around and shifted manufacturing overseas they'd lose customers fast, this includes made in Japan brands. Yeah not sure on the audits they cite they use Patagonia's audits, but who'd they hire, etc...who knows. Blind faith for us i guess. |
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Post by gaseousclay on May 11, 2017 10:49:16 GMT -6
my comment was just a response to TS's explanation, not at you. My question though, who performs the audit at the Chinese factory? Who does the factory in China employ? Poor workers from rural communities? Children? Beyond the meals, housing and clothing, what sort of wages do their workers make? These questions are important to me. To me it highlights whether or not a factory is exploiting their workers. We have OSHA & the Dept of Labor here in the US which provides protections for workers. I'm guessing that Chinese workers are not provided with these same protections. Yes, comparing TS to 3sixteen or RgT might not be totally fair. I was just using them as examples because they're US made and that this is part of the reason people support them. I just know that if any of the premium brands we follow and pay good money for turned around and shifted manufacturing overseas they'd lose customers fast, this includes made in Japan brands. Yeah not sure on the audits they cite they use Patagonia's audits, but who'd they hire, etc...who knows. Blind faith for us i guess. Their explanation just reads like a memo that was copied/pasted and sent around the TS office. I just want to know if their clothing is ethically made or made from the tears of poor Chinese women and children |
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Post by ncbluegrass on May 18, 2017 6:54:04 GMT -6
received new Jack shirt. Fit in arms, chest and neck are spot on. Shirt length is 2-3" longer than any other Jack i have and the tails are reminiscent of a Gustin dick curtain. I asked about it over on SF, albeit in a more civilized way. I guess this will be an office shirt, unless i can draw it up some.
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New Drops
May 18, 2017 8:03:16 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by bentin on May 18, 2017 8:03:16 GMT -6
received new Jack shirt. Fit in arms, chest and neck are spot on. Shirt length is 2-3" longer than any other Jack i have and the tails are reminiscent of a Gustin dick curtain. I asked about it over on SF, albeit in a more civilized way. I guess this will be an office shirt, unless i can draw it up some. Yeah, the last US Jack I bought was a full size larger than any of my others, and longer. |
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Post by toolonginexile on May 19, 2017 6:26:09 GMT -6
received new Jack shirt. Fit in arms, chest and neck are spot on. Shirt length is 2-3" longer than any other Jack i have and the tails are reminiscent of a Gustin dick curtain. I asked about it over on SF, albeit in a more civilized way. I guess this will be an office shirt, unless i can draw it up some. Yeah, the last US Jack I bought was a full size larger than any of my others, and longer. Same here. I put mine up for sale in the forum. This 46 not very close to my prior one |
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Post by ncbluegrass on May 19, 2017 6:52:02 GMT -6
So this was the response i received regarding the measurements of my latest Jack. Is it just me, or is it not the customer's responsibility to handle your quality control? You shouldn't be using full production runs to vet a new factory and you shouldn't be sending out full production runs without having a team check for accuracy beforehand.
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Post by gaseousclay on May 19, 2017 8:36:22 GMT -6
So this was the response i received regarding the measurements of my latest Jack. Is it just me, or is it not the customer's responsibility to handle your quality control? You shouldn't be using full production runs to vet a new factory and you shouldn't be sending out full production runs without having a team check for accuracy beforehand. agreed. It's not your responsibility to handle QC. TS should be checking for QC before sending product out to customers, not the other way around. |
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New Drops
May 20, 2017 12:05:36 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by DigDug on May 20, 2017 12:05:36 GMT -6
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Post by bentin on May 20, 2017 12:48:07 GMT -6
Price is fine considering it's selvedge. If it were raw I'd be a lot more interested. Hoping the other three drops are not washed.
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Post by northcoast on May 20, 2017 13:06:46 GMT -6
Struggling not to impulse buy. The wins for me: pre washed, pre shrunk love the mechanic fit chambray Not so happy with: price worn look If it was same price as the others I would have already bought it. |
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Post by kkozel on May 21, 2017 8:43:15 GMT -6
I like the mechanic a lot - something about indigo/indigo chambray making it hard to pass on. I swear when I first clicked the email it was a different placeholder. The next three were alluded to, and there was a picture of a western, heavily washed. I know something one of the "teases" said something about texture, can't remember the last.
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New Drops
May 21, 2017 8:51:04 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by DigDug on May 21, 2017 8:51:04 GMT -6
I like the mechanic a lot - something about indigo/indigo chambray making it hard to pass on. I swear when I first clicked the email it was a different placeholder. The next three were alluded to, and there was a picture of a western, heavily washed. I know something one of the "teases" said something about texture, can't remember the last. Where'd you see the pic of the western? |
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Post by kkozel on May 21, 2017 8:53:13 GMT -6
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Post by kkozel on May 21, 2017 8:53:59 GMT -6
I like the mechanic a lot - something about indigo/indigo chambray making it hard to pass on. I swear when I first clicked the email it was a different placeholder. The next three were alluded to, and there was a picture of a western, heavily washed. I know something one of the "teases" said something about texture, can't remember the last. Where'd you see the pic of the western? They changed the landing page some point friday night (i checked email at like 5est) but they left the assets up - linked above. |
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