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Post by drstrange on Apr 7, 2015 8:38:43 GMT -6
my pyramid of preference:
1. "Europe 1" (Switzerland, Germany, UK, Ireland, France, Benelux countries, Scandinavian countries, Austria, Italy, Spain), USA, Canada, Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand
2. "Europe 2" (all other European countries)
3. Rest of the World
This is prior to quality & price issues. Just my belief, that in Tier 1 workers are better protected than in Tier 2 and for sure more than in Tier 3. Any company proven to be involved in child labour or modern type slavery get's on the banned list and stays there for at least 5 years ...
Quality wise I am not too sure the pyramid would stand all the time ....
Price wise the pyramid is of course upside down ... just trying to spending my money wiser: buying less equals producing less waste
and yes, I got a bit reluctant with regards to companies using the pre-funding model due to some bad experience a lot of us have had (including me), a company which I am not going to name here (suppose everyone will know anyway) .... this is somewhat sad, as I thought the model in theory is very appealing
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Post by nate001 on May 18, 2018 8:51:49 GMT -6
I've purchased a few things from Todd Shelton. Their stuff is pretty good, a little expensive, and not really what I'm going for in denim, but their dress shirts and trousers are pretty good. After the presidental election, Todd had an interview with the LA Times. Just google Todd Shelton LA times. It should be the first hit. Anyway, in the interview he said he voted for Trump, because he thought that would be the best chance for American manufacturing. Not surprisingly to anyone who has read my posts on this forum, that didn't sit well with me, and I have stayed away as a customer for the past year and a half.
Recently Todd Shelton started making lightweight wool trousers and they sucked me back in (I haven't had much luck finding MiUSA dress trousers that aren't super expensive), but I wrote a note to customer support at the time of my order voicing my concerns. Within a day I received a response from Todd:
"Hi Nate,
Amy mentioned your concerns and I really appreciate you bringing it up.
I believe a country needs manufacturing for so many reasons (jobs is not my top concern here). It's more about the fabric of a culture (working with hands), innovation, and greater opportunities for non-metropolitan communities. I don't take sides politically, am a strong believer in free will - I see too many grey areas on issues to pick sides or get involved. But I don't see grey areas on US trade policy, I'd like to see our government do more to support manufacturing by renegotiating trade.
I believe the past few administrations and CEO's gave away too much, too cheap, with free or loose trade policies. Some people got rich, but more lost a lot - and will continue to lose. Also, I believe the cheap product culture we're adopting here (due to the exploitation of poor countries) is not good for the environment or consumerism. Renegotiated trade (tariffs, quotas) could be good for US manufacturing and pump the brakes on wasteful consumption.
I'd like to ask you to wait a year and let me answer your question about whether my mind has changed, I want to see what happens with trade negotiations which are underway now. In the meantime, I'd ask you to judge us on the values in which we operate our business daily.
More directly, I know Trump is a jerk and makes half of this country very uneasy - and I hate that reality.
If you still feel unsettled, I'd suggest us hoping on a call.
Thanks for the support,
Todd S."
Here's my response:
"Todd -
Let me start by saying thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. I don't think there are too many other clothing company founders that would reply to a customer email at all, much less within a day. That responsiveness is one reason why I came back as a customer.
I also think it is important to cultivate American manufacturing jobs. If a thoughtful and nuanced program of tariffs and quotas can help bring that about, great. I'm just not sure our President is up to that task. So far he has called NAFTA and TPP terrible deals, and has (almost) implemented tariffs on steel and aluminum. Other than that, I haven't seen much of plan. Meanwhile, American manufacturing jobs have continued to increase, but at roughly the same rate as under President Obama since the recession of 2008-9.
Even if President Trump is able to grow the manufacturing sector (and I'm skeptical he is), is it worth the damage his administration is doing to the environment, to the civil rights of immigrants and people of color and the ability of lower and middle income workers to afford good health care?
If nothing else, he made ugly ties in China, ugly shirts in Bangladesh and his daughter continues to make clothing in SE Asia.
That said, I am back as a customer of your company because I believe in deeds, not words. Your company appears to care for its employees, give a crap about the environment and make quality garments that will last. That's enough for me for now, but in 2020? We'll see.
Good luck in your endeavors,
Nate"
Not really sure what else to say. Thought it would be an interesting conversation starter on the forum.
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Post by gaseousclay on May 18, 2018 9:07:38 GMT -6
cool post. Good point though mentioning that Trump manufactures his sh*t overseas. I've taken a hardline approach as a consumer. In the case of TS, I will not buy from them anymore because of the way they've outsourced most of their production. I know i'm beating a dead horse here but it's the principle of it all and the only thing that some companies respond to is money. Take that away from them and they sometimes fall back in line or they go tits up. I'm not prepared to say that US manufacturing, especially with clothing, is the highest quality but if it means keeping jobs here and creating more jobs in an an industry that is on the decline then I will choose to support US companies.
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Post by DigDug on May 18, 2018 10:04:53 GMT -6
cool post. Good point though mentioning that Trump manufactures his sh*t overseas. I've taken a hardline approach as a consumer. In the case of TS, I will not buy from them anymore because of the way they've outsourced most of their production. I know i'm beating a dead horse here but it's the principle of it all and the only thing that some companies respond to is money. Take that away from them and they sometimes fall back in line or they go tits up. I'm not prepared to say that US manufacturing, especially with clothing, is the highest quality but if it means keeping jobs here and creating more jobs in an an industry that is on the decline then I will choose to support US companies. Wouldn't buying TS made in California products also make the statement? Keeping a few US workers working |
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Post by nate001 on May 18, 2018 10:08:46 GMT -6
cool post. Good point though mentioning that Trump manufactures his sh*t overseas. I've taken a hardline approach as a consumer. In the case of TS, I will not buy from them anymore because of the way they've outsourced most of their production. I know i'm beating a dead horse here but it's the principle of it all and the only thing that some companies respond to is money. Take that away from them and they sometimes fall back in line or they go tits up. I'm not prepared to say that US manufacturing, especially with clothing, is the highest quality but if it means keeping jobs here and creating more jobs in an an industry that is on the decline then I will choose to support US companies. Wouldn't buying TS made in California products also make the statement? Keeping a few US workers working I suppose it would, but do they make anything in CA anymore? I don't really check out their clothes anymore. EDIT: OK, I looked. They make a few things still in USA, but the numbers are dwindling. |
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Post by matt on May 18, 2018 10:25:59 GMT -6
Wouldn't buying TS made in California products also make the statement? Keeping a few US workers working I suppose it would, but do they make anything in CA anymore? I don't really check out their clothes anymore. EDIT: OK, I looked. They make a few things still in USA, but the numbers are dwindling. This is my perspective as well. I really try to seek out and purchase only the "Made in California" offerings from TS. Few and far between with my purchases, but if others have the same perspective, one of two things will happen: 1. They will notice and produce more MiCali. 2. They will farm those out as well because they can't keep up/cost prohibitive/some other lame reasoning. |
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Post by gaseousclay on May 18, 2018 11:04:35 GMT -6
cool post. Good point though mentioning that Trump manufactures his sh*t overseas. I've taken a hardline approach as a consumer. In the case of TS, I will not buy from them anymore because of the way they've outsourced most of their production. I know i'm beating a dead horse here but it's the principle of it all and the only thing that some companies respond to is money. Take that away from them and they sometimes fall back in line or they go tits up. I'm not prepared to say that US manufacturing, especially with clothing, is the highest quality but if it means keeping jobs here and creating more jobs in an an industry that is on the decline then I will choose to support US companies. Wouldn't buying TS made in California products also make the statement? Keeping a few US workers working I suppose, but it would still enable them to outsource production of their clothing. They built their reputation on the "proudly made in the USA/California" slogan. This would be like having Vermilyea Pelle switching from US made to Chinese made on their bags. VP built their rep on the fact that all their goods are made by hand in their tiny workshop. If they wanted they could easily outsource manufacturing elsewhere and come out ahead, but they know that customers are willing to pay a premium to buy what they make because of the quality and because they're US made. I guess at the end of the day I strongly dislike this habit of companies outsourcing once they become successful. It's a cash grab at the expense of the consumer. I don't buy TS's explanation about logistics. If companies like 3sixteen, Rogue Territory, Freenote, etc., can keep their stuff MiUSA then so can TS. |
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Post by toolonginexile on May 18, 2018 12:23:38 GMT -6
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Post by davelewis on May 18, 2018 18:32:44 GMT -6
Wouldn't buying TS made in California products also make the statement? Keeping a few US workers working I suppose, but it would still enable them to outsource production of their clothing. They built their reputation on the "proudly made in the USA/California" slogan. This would be like having Vermilyea Pelle switching from US made to Chinese made on their bags. VP built their rep on the fact that all their goods are made by hand in their tiny workshop. If they wanted they could easily outsource manufacturing elsewhere and come out ahead, but they know that customers are willing to pay a premium to buy what they make because of the quality and because they're US made. I guess at the end of the day I strongly dislike this habit of companies outsourcing once they become successful. It's a cash grab at the expense of the consumer. I don't buy TS's explanation about logistics. If companies like 3sixteen, Rogue Territory, Freenote, etc., can keep their stuff MiUSA then so can TS. I agree. TS can spin it however they want to, but it is what it is. I would consider something that I liked from them if it fits, but I have found that most anything that falls into that category is now MIC, so I just pass. I have a Relwen seersucker shirt that is very nice, fits great, and impeccably made, but is MIC. I picked it up on sale for something like $80 bucks, but the going retail for their shirts is like $188. I wouldn't pay full retail, but could be tempted to buy again if I could get another great discount, just because of how good it is. This is truly an exception for me though, as when I see MIC, it is an instapass. |
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Post by northcoast on May 18, 2018 20:56:24 GMT -6
Relwen - how can you sell shirts for almost $200 and not provide sizing?
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Post by davelewis on May 19, 2018 11:05:53 GMT -6
Relwen - how can you sell shirts for almost $200 and not provide sizing? For sure. Its mind boggling that the company website can't provide sizing info. If I remember correctly, I might have purchased it from this site, but not 100% sure. Its slim pickings for most of their sale stuff, but I might have hit the timing right for getting an XL. At least they have some sizing info. theroyalbloke.com/product/relwen-navy-red-tartan-plaid-airtex-broadcloth/ |
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Post by northcoast on May 19, 2018 11:44:40 GMT -6
Relwen - how can you sell shirts for almost $200 and not provide sizing? For sure. Its mind boggling that the company website can't provide sizing info. If I remember correctly, I might have purchased it from this site, but not 100% sure. Its slim pickings for most of their sale stuff, but I might have hit the timing right for getting an XL. At least they have some sizing info. theroyalbloke.com/product/relwen-navy-red-tartan-plaid-airtex-broadcloth/Thanks.
I figured if you could wear it I likely could as well and that XL is right in my wheelhouse......so I'll keep an eye out for them.
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Post by gaseousclay on Oct 30, 2018 9:41:35 GMT -6
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Post by bentin on Oct 30, 2018 13:45:22 GMT -6
m I'm actually buying nothing but Portuguese made goods now. |
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Post by bentin on Oct 30, 2018 13:52:36 GMT -6
In all seriousness, our current administration has actually caused me to direct more of my money to Mexican and Latin American made goods. I'm still eying a pair of Railcars and will likely buy another pair of Epaulet chinos because of the $10 donation to HIAS (hias10 code), and I've sadly been mildly spiteful to owners of US brands who have spoken out for this guy. Nothing untoward, just taking my money elsewhere, and part of that has been relaxing my MiUSA focus.
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Post by northcoast on Oct 30, 2018 19:51:33 GMT -6
In all seriousness, our current administration has actually caused me to direct more of my money to Mexican and Latin American made goods. I'm still eying a pair of Railcars and will likely buy another pair of Epaulet chinos because of the $10 donation to HIAS (hias10 code), and I've sadly been mildly spiteful to owners of US brands who have spoken out for this guy. Nothing untoward, just taking my money elsewhere, and part of that has been relaxing my MiUSA focus. Good for you.
I was happy to see that Epaulet email about HIAS today and hear a good explanation of what HIAS is on NPR like 2x today.
It's past time mainstream news stories came out about how 'we' helped make the mess in Latin America
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Post by nate001 on Jan 31, 2019 7:37:50 GMT -6
For some reason I read the taylor stitch thread on reddit last night. The posts were, for the most part, from a few months ago, but some interesting tidbits stood out. For one, I definitely think the owners give a crap about making a quality product and I'm sure they faced challenges in domestic production. I don't know anything about supply chain, but I still don't understand their argument that basing production (mostly) in china makes their products more environmentally friendly. I'm sure all of their products come to California from China after they are finished, so isn't the carbon footprint the same if they sourced and produced in china vs. sourcing in china/greater asia/europe and produced here in the good ol' US of A? Will someone explain this to me?
I have to admit I judge TS more harshly than other brands that make some of their stuff here and some of their stuff abroad. A few folks on the reddit post mentioned that TS is aiming to be Everlane (transparency in supply chain), but haven't adjusted their pricing to reflect the change in factory location. I don't think anyone at TS is driving a Maclaren, and I don't begrudge a company wanting to make money, but I just don't get their pricing strategy.
All in all, it makes me respect more and more what Todd Shelton has done. He wasn't happy with the quality of domestic production, so rather than offshore, he built his own factory, in the NYC metropolitan area no less. As I'm freezing my ass off here in MN, I've been looking at wool flannel pants. He makes good looking ones, made from fabric milled in the US. I may disagree with the statements he made in the LA Times (see post above in this thread), but by god he makes good looking clothes, treats his workers well and cares about the environment.
The forum has been a little slow lately, so I thought I fire things up again.
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Post by bentin on Jan 31, 2019 13:06:30 GMT -6
Funny, I've been looking for wool pants.
TS is clearly convinced they're doing the right thing. Unfortunately I'm just as convinced they're doing absolutely the wrong thing. I've bought stuff from American Trench, Stock Mfg, Product of Bob Scales and Railcar in the last few months that I would have likely got from TS if they hadn't taken their Americana to China.
I saw a pic of one of their future drops, it looks great, is made in California too, but I'll never buy it because of their overall practice.
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Post by nate001 on Jan 31, 2019 13:55:00 GMT -6
Funny, I've been looking for wool pants. TS is clearly convinced they're doing the right thing. Unfortunately I'm just as convinced they're doing absolutely the wrong thing. I've bought stuff from American Trench, Stock Mfg, Product of Bob Scales and Railcar in the last few months that I would have likely got from TS if they hadn't taken their Americana to China. I saw a pic of one of their future drops, it looks great, is made in California too, but I'll never buy it because of their overall practice. I have a pair of summer weight wool trousers from Todd Shelton (no longer available on the website) and I think they are the best fitting pants i own. If you are looking for something dressier than a chino but not a suit, I think his trousers hit the mark. I’m probably going to order the navy wool flannel, but they are sending me a fabric swatch and I’m waiting for that before putting in my order. |
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Post by DigDug on Jan 31, 2019 14:41:18 GMT -6
Funny, I've been looking for wool pants. TS is clearly convinced they're doing the right thing. Unfortunately I'm just as convinced they're doing absolutely the wrong thing. I've bought stuff from American Trench, Stock Mfg, Product of Bob Scales and Railcar in the last few months that I would have likely got from TS if they hadn't taken their Americana to China. I saw a pic of one of their future drops, it looks great, is made in California too, but I'll never buy it because of their overall practice. Wouldn't buying The Made In California products make a point? and boycott the MiC stuff. That way they have hard facts and data to see what direction the customers want to go. (Think I asked this before) |
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Post by bentin on Jan 31, 2019 15:50:44 GMT -6
Funny, I've been looking for wool pants. TS is clearly convinced they're doing the right thing. Unfortunately I'm just as convinced they're doing absolutely the wrong thing. I've bought stuff from American Trench, Stock Mfg, Product of Bob Scales and Railcar in the last few months that I would have likely got from TS if they hadn't taken their Americana to China. I saw a pic of one of their future drops, it looks great, is made in California too, but I'll never buy it because of their overall practice. Wouldn't buying The Made In California products make a point? and boycott the MiC stuff. That way they have hard facts and data to see what direction the customers want to go. (Think I asked this before) If they're really tracking individual purchases. I see it as giving money to a company that was 80ish percent MiUSA and 20% Spain/Portugal and is now 90% China, 8% Spain's/Portugal and 2% US. Same thing as Filson a decade ago. They (Filson) seem to be bringing more stuff back here, but I'm still not supooorting them either. |
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Post by ncbluegrass on Feb 1, 2019 7:57:49 GMT -6
What offering is currently MiUSA? I have $30 worth of credits to TS and I kind of want to use it and be done with them.
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Post by nate001 on Feb 1, 2019 10:46:53 GMT -6
Yeah, the way they were hyping that Tuff Duck campaign I thought for sure it would be a MiUSA product. Not that I need any more canvas pants, but what a disappointment.
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